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Author Topic:   Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 166 of 354 (362199)
11-06-2006 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Christian7
11-06-2006 5:07 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
So you said:
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into changing something. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you like with enough effort.
Specifically you said :
You can exert how ever much you like with enough effort.
Then you went on to say:
Yes, but that in no ways implies that our will power is ever sufficient to change that which we cannot change. We can exert however much we like , with enough effort, but it is within the restrictions of choice.
Is that correct?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 5:07 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 6:48 PM jar has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 167 of 354 (362200)
11-06-2006 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Christian7
11-06-2006 4:24 PM


Re: the illusion of free will
iBibleNano writes:
It's not God's fault you are going to hell. It's your own damn fault. Think about it, you can drop on your knees right now and pleed for forgiveness of your sins while accepting Jesus Christ into your heart as your personal lord and savior. You could have done that at anytime in your life, and you can do it now. But I doubt you will do it in the future. So you better make up your mind. Oh that's right. Your mind is already made up. I don't think the holy spirit is working on your heart anymore.
that doesn't answer what I asked you. I asked you :
quote:
May I ask what is the motive behind this approach ? Why God still creates those of us who will suffer the consequences?
well...?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the bug and some days you'll be the windscreen."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 4:24 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 6:18 PM Legend has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 168 of 354 (362206)
11-06-2006 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Christian7
11-06-2006 4:21 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
iBiblenano,
So whether God is inside or outside of time, it is still logically valid to state that God has forknowledge of our choice which are made of free will.
No it isn't. This is why you have to retreat & say god exists out side of time.
I'll leave you at the same point I left iano, being reduced to ad hoc fallacies to explain why god is outside of reason & logic.
As the lone ranger says, "my work here is done".
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 4:21 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 6:25 PM mark24 has replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 169 of 354 (362207)
11-06-2006 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Christian7
11-06-2006 6:14 AM


Re: the illusion of free will
Point is: God wants us to have the experience of chosing him or chosing against him, and afterwords he wants us to have the experience of our consequences. It's as simple as that.
You speak here with an air of authority. So do you have Biblical references substantiating this claim?
Otherwise I don't think it is cool to make claims what God “wants us” or does not want us to do.
I would recommend you preface such comments with "I think", "I believe" or "maybe" - otherwise it smacks of arrogance and you will get a strong response. From reading the various exchanges to your claims I would suggest you spend a little more time thinking these claims thru.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 6:14 AM Christian7 has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 170 of 354 (362210)
11-06-2006 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Legend
11-06-2006 5:22 PM


Re: the illusion of free will
May I ask what is the motive behind this approach ? Why God still creates those of us who will suffer the consequences?
To demonstrate to them that he is God regardless of what fallacies they held to be true throughout their lifetime.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Legend, posted 11-06-2006 5:22 PM Legend has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 171 of 354 (362211)
11-06-2006 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by mark24
11-06-2006 5:53 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
No it isn't. This is why you have to retreat & say god exists out side of time.
I'll leave you at the same point I left iano, being reduced to ad hoc fallacies to explain why god is outside of reason & logic.
First of all, I never retreated. I always held the view point that God was outside of time. You were arguing that forknowledge equaled predestination, and I saw a flaw in your reasoning, so I pointed it out. Later on, I showed you that it didn't matter because God was outside of time anyway.
Seccond of all, God is not outside of logic or reason. The problem is our finite minds are not capable of the reasoning required to understand such a God as the one that exists. However, we most certianly can demonstrate with logic that such a God is possible.
As the lone ranger says, "my work here is done".
Mark
Your work is no where near done because you haven't demonstrated that forknowledge and predestination are connected. Plus, iano and I have proposed that God is outside of time anyway.
Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given.
Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by mark24, posted 11-06-2006 5:53 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by mark24, posted 11-06-2006 7:08 PM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 172 of 354 (362213)
11-06-2006 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by jar
11-06-2006 5:22 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
Is that correct?
I kindly request that you allow me to revise my first statement. I made a simple error which needs to be fixed.
I said:
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into changing something. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you like with enough effort.
What I meant to say was:
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into making a choice. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you have the effort to exert.
Through those choices, you can influence the world to achieve your goals. Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing.
Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given.
Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given.
Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 5:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 6:57 PM Christian7 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 173 of 354 (362215)
11-06-2006 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Christian7
11-06-2006 6:48 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
So now you are revising what you said.
So you are now saying:
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into making a choice. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you have the effort to exert.
Through those choices, you can influence the world to achieve your goals. Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing.
Is that correct?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 6:48 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:10 PM jar has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 174 of 354 (362218)
11-06-2006 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Christian7
11-06-2006 6:25 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
iBibleNano,
Your work is no where near done because you haven't demonstrated that forknowledge and predestination are connected.
Yes I did, see the post where I removed predestination from the syllogism to counter your attempt to define the problem away.
Plus, iano and I have proposed that God is outside of time anyway.
Ad hoc.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 6:25 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:14 PM mark24 has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 175 of 354 (362219)
11-06-2006 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by jar
11-06-2006 6:57 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
Is that correct?
Yes. As you can see, the revised version is immune to the following arguments.
1. We can become like God.
2. We can achieve whatever we want.
3. We can change our whole course in life in an instant.
Now I will provide a commentary to my revised version.
Will power is how much effort you exert into making a choice.
So will power is defined as how much mental force we exert into making a choice. Duh! So whatever capacity you have to chose, that's what limits your ability to do something. Obviouslly if you have no limbs, that limits your choices.
You can exert how ever much you have the effort to exert.
This limits what we can do, since it's based on our limited effort. A human can only exert so much effort.
Through those choices, you can influence the world to achieve your goals.
This also puts a limit on what we can do. It depends on what choices we make that affect the world. Obviouslly humans don't always make the right choices. Plus, as I have stated before, our choices are limited by our circumstances.
Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing.
Duh!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 6:57 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 7:14 PM Christian7 has replied
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 11-06-2006 7:18 PM Christian7 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 176 of 354 (362220)
11-06-2006 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Christian7
11-06-2006 7:10 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
You agree that you said:
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into making a choice. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you have the effort to exert.
Through those choices, you can influence the world to achieve your goals. Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing.
I just want to make sure that is what you said.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:10 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:16 PM jar has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 177 of 354 (362221)
11-06-2006 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by mark24
11-06-2006 7:08 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
Yes I did, see the post where I removed predestination from the syllogism to counter your attempt to define the problem away.
You'll have to give me a link because I can't find it.
Ad hoc.
Well, I don't know what that means.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by mark24, posted 11-06-2006 7:08 PM mark24 has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 178 of 354 (362222)
11-06-2006 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by jar
11-06-2006 7:14 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
I just want to make sure that is what you said.
That IS what I said, BUT I have provided a commentary so that it will be interpreted correctly. Obviouslly people interpret the scriptures in thousands of different ways. The same can be said about what I have written. So I have explained what it is that I meant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 7:14 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 7:20 PM Christian7 has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 179 of 354 (362223)
11-06-2006 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Christian7
11-06-2006 7:10 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
I'll ask again: if God already knows who is damned, what is the role of the Holy Spirit?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:10 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:24 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 180 of 354 (362224)
11-06-2006 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Christian7
11-06-2006 7:16 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
No, your explanation was nonsense and circular. However we will walk through what you actually said.
Are you ready to do so?
Just to be sure, you said:
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into making a choice. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you have the effort to exert.
Through those choices, you can influence the world to achieve your goals. Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing.
Is that correct?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:16 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:21 PM jar has replied

  
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