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Author Topic:   "Flags of Our Fathers"
AdminNWR
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Message 31 of 60 (362473)
11-07-2006 5:23 PM


Rule 10
10. Always treat other members with respect. Argue the position, not the person. Avoid abusive, harassing and invasive behavior. Avoid needling, hectoring and goading tactics.

If the tone of the last few messages continues, there will be suspensions.


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  • Taz
    Member (Idle past 1458 days)
    Posts: 5069
    From: Zerus
    Joined: 07-18-2006


    Message 32 of 60 (362480)
    11-07-2006 5:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 24 by Thugpreacha
    11-07-2006 7:20 AM


    Re: the wisdom (or lack of same) concerning war
    Phat writes:

    I understand and think it quite Christ-like to be a nation of pacifists...


    While I understand that you yourself question this statement, I must comment.

    Being a nation of pacifists will only result in sufferings for countless many. Imagine if England was a pacifist nation and allowed hitler to take over. Imagine if the USA was pacifist when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. Now, think a little deeper. How many Jews and Slavics would have died if there was no WW2? How many Chinese and Philipinos would have been enslaved by the Japanese?

    Ok, now think a little deeper still. How long after Europe was conquered before the Nazis cross the Atlantic to come into North America? We know for a fact that while they were fighting the airwar with Britain German engineers were trying to come up with a long range bomber that could cross the Atlantic and bomb the American coastal cities.

    Breathe deep and think a tiny bit deeper. Are you willing to stand there and watch hundreds of millions of innocent people die in death camps?

    It's easy to sit there protected by the most powerful army in the world and proclaim moral high ground and criticize war machines. I wonder how you would react if german panzers were coming toward Denver from the east or Japanese bombers were coming from the west.

    The only reason evil still persists in this world is because not enough people care enough for their fellow men.

    Please note that I am not advocating for any war. There are just wars and there are unjust wars. I am only saying that being a pacifist is simply silly and anything but christ-like.


    Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc

    The thread about this map can be found here.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 24 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-07-2006 7:20 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 33 by Chiroptera, posted 11-07-2006 5:59 PM Taz has responded

    Chiroptera
    Member
    Posts: 6631
    From: Oklahoma
    Joined: 09-28-2003
    Member Rating: 4.8


    Message 33 of 60 (362481)
    11-07-2006 5:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 32 by Taz
    11-07-2006 5:57 PM


    Re: the wisdom (or lack of same) concerning war
    quote:
    I wonder how you would react if german panzers were coming toward Denver from the east or Japanese bombers were coming from the west.

    Heh. Yeah, I've read alternate history stories about this. But I've never been able to muster the suspension of disbelief enough to enjoy the stories.


    Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 32 by Taz, posted 11-07-2006 5:57 PM Taz has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 35 by Taz, posted 11-08-2006 1:07 AM Chiroptera has responded

    8upwidit2
    Member (Idle past 2612 days)
    Posts: 88
    From: Katrinaville USA
    Joined: 02-03-2005


    Message 34 of 60 (362492)
    11-07-2006 6:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 30 by RickJB
    11-07-2006 5:16 PM


    Re: kentucky
    I'm not sure what you mean.."Kissing his behind"? Don't you get it?

    My position has nothing to do with him or his opinion(s). I may or may not agree with him on any subject. I do think he has a perfect right to his opinion without being told he is stupid or some ignorant hillbilly. If he is young, big deal. Why is that an issue?

    What is an issue is this better than thou, arogant attitude by EVC "Intelligentsia" that unless you agree with them, you're an idiot. It's this gifted mentality attitude towards those who don't fit their mold. There are a lot of people reading these posts that think some of these guys don't know squat and (I know I am going to shake the IQers to the core)maybe they might be smarter than the posters but simply prefer to stay above the fray.

    If a new poster doesn't measure up to your (perceived) lofty IQ's, and if he does not have the tools necessary to compete at your (perceived)mental/knowledge/coolness level, don't attack him or his heritage. That's my beef.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 30 by RickJB, posted 11-07-2006 5:16 PM RickJB has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 38 by nator, posted 11-08-2006 6:54 AM 8upwidit2 has not yet responded

      
    Taz
    Member (Idle past 1458 days)
    Posts: 5069
    From: Zerus
    Joined: 07-18-2006


    Message 35 of 60 (362537)
    11-08-2006 1:07 AM
    Reply to: Message 33 by Chiroptera
    11-07-2006 5:59 PM


    Re: the wisdom (or lack of same) concerning war
    Chiroptera writes:

    But I've never been able to muster the suspension of disbelief enough to enjoy the stories.


    I know what you mean. Just read some Turtledove.

    Anyway, the point is if we hadn't entered the war Britain wouldn't have been so fortunate. Sure, it would have taken Nazi Germany years, but with the entire continent of Europe at its disposal, it could squeeze the life out of Britain.

    What I am essentially saying is being a pacifist is suicide. There have always been and there will always be bullies.


    Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc

    The thread about this map can be found here.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 33 by Chiroptera, posted 11-07-2006 5:59 PM Chiroptera has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 42 by Chiroptera, posted 11-08-2006 8:24 AM Taz has responded

    AdminPhat
    Administrator
    Posts: 1911
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-03-2004


    Message 36 of 60 (362570)
    11-08-2006 6:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 29 by 8upwidit2
    11-07-2006 2:58 PM


    Stay on Topic
    Try to stay on topic and keep personal comments (jokingly or otherwise) to a minimum.



    GOT QUESTIONS? You may click these links for some feedback:
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    ***************************************
    New Members: to get an understanding of what makes great posts, check out:
  • "Post of the Month" Forum
    "DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU"
    AdminPhat


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 29 by 8upwidit2, posted 11-07-2006 2:58 PM 8upwidit2 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 40 by 8upwidit2, posted 11-08-2006 8:15 AM AdminPhat has not yet responded

      
    nator
    Member (Idle past 336 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 37 of 60 (362576)
    11-08-2006 6:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 27 by 8upwidit2
    11-07-2006 12:50 PM


    Re: kentucky
    quote:
    LESS IGNORANT? Sorry I forgot my place. You guys have it all figured out. Truly legends in your own mind. Make sure your contact information is correct so those poor ignorant Kentucky natives can seek guidance and mental leadership from you guys.

    Nobody said we "have it all figured out".

    But racism isn't exactly rare in the South, is it, Kentucky included?

    And it's a very red state.

    And, it recently ranked 47th in the nation in percentage of residents with a Bachelor's degree.

    Lots of room for improvement in education, both formal and social, don't you think?

    quote:
    I know they will be excited about being just like you.

    Do you have a bachelor's degree?

    quote:
    So, just so I will understand what you are saying, you can offend an entire state and make offensive and low brow comments, but if I have an alter-ID (which I don't) THAT is against the forum guidelines?

    Yep!

    But how did I offend an entire state just by telling the truth?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 27 by 8upwidit2, posted 11-07-2006 12:50 PM 8upwidit2 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 39 by 8upwidit2, posted 11-08-2006 8:08 AM nator has responded

      
    nator
    Member (Idle past 336 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 38 of 60 (362577)
    11-08-2006 6:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 34 by 8upwidit2
    11-07-2006 6:47 PM


    Re: kentucky
    quote:
    I know I am going to shake the IQers to the core

    Bring it on.

    So far, all you have offered is a lot of posturing and smack talk.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 34 by 8upwidit2, posted 11-07-2006 6:47 PM 8upwidit2 has not yet responded

      
    8upwidit2
    Member (Idle past 2612 days)
    Posts: 88
    From: Katrinaville USA
    Joined: 02-03-2005


    Message 39 of 60 (362594)
    11-08-2006 8:08 AM
    Reply to: Message 37 by nator
    11-08-2006 6:49 AM


    Re: kentucky
    What has racism have to do with this discussion? And it is a RED state? Stay on task here.

    Let me guess, you're a Liberal! You could have fooled me. Red state. Get a life, man! With that comment comes the idea that you want Nancy Pelosi wielding a big stick that will have an effect on all of us? What a doofus. I'm embarrassed for San Francisco that she is the best they have. Well, you have your wish, the loons are back. Watch this cluster phuck take shape.

    Bachelor's degree? I would have to back up two degrees to get there. With a Bachelors degree, you can get coffee for people at McDonalds. Don't tell me that you only have a Bachelors and you think you're a brainiac? Please.

    Try to control your superiority complex Schraf, because you're not superior. And the oldest trick in the book for those with your complex is to pick on a certain people or area of the country where you actually feel you can look down at them. Kentucky does not have to look up to see anybody else, especially you.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 37 by nator, posted 11-08-2006 6:49 AM nator has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 41 by AdminPhat, posted 11-08-2006 8:17 AM 8upwidit2 has not yet responded
     Message 56 by nator, posted 11-10-2006 5:37 PM 8upwidit2 has responded

      
    8upwidit2
    Member (Idle past 2612 days)
    Posts: 88
    From: Katrinaville USA
    Joined: 02-03-2005


    Message 40 of 60 (362595)
    11-08-2006 8:15 AM
    Reply to: Message 36 by AdminPhat
    11-08-2006 6:23 AM


    Re: Stay on Topic
    Sorry Phat...these guys just make me want to spew. The discussion was going fine and I was just listening in till the superior intellects made some really unnecessary comments about a fine and honorable state to a guy who just chirped in. I'll back off and just listen in a bit more. Schraf has so much to offer. I appreciate the input.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 36 by AdminPhat, posted 11-08-2006 6:23 AM AdminPhat has not yet responded

      
    AdminPhat
    Administrator
    Posts: 1911
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-03-2004


    Message 41 of 60 (362596)
    11-08-2006 8:17 AM
    Reply to: Message 39 by 8upwidit2
    11-08-2006 8:08 AM


    Topic Topic Topic
    sorry I didnt see your message. Suspension lifted

    But try and stay on topic....please? ;)

    Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.



    GOT QUESTIONS? You may click these links for some feedback:
  • General discussion of moderation procedures
  • Thread Reopen Requests
  • Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
  • Forum Guidelines
    ***************************************
    New Members: to get an understanding of what makes great posts, check out:
  • "Post of the Month" Forum
    "DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU"
    AdminPhat


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 39 by 8upwidit2, posted 11-08-2006 8:08 AM 8upwidit2 has not yet responded

      
    Chiroptera
    Member
    Posts: 6631
    From: Oklahoma
    Joined: 09-28-2003
    Member Rating: 4.8


    Message 42 of 60 (362599)
    11-08-2006 8:24 AM
    Reply to: Message 35 by Taz
    11-08-2006 1:07 AM


    Re: the wisdom (or lack of same) concerning war
    quote:
    Anyway, the point is if we hadn't entered the war Britain wouldn't have been so fortunate. Sure, it would have taken Nazi Germany years, but with the entire continent of Europe at its disposal, it could squeeze the life out of Britain.

    Except the Eastern portions of Europe, you mean. And with the constant fighting in the East at worst (assuming without US involvement the Germans would have been able to halt the Soviets' counteroffensive and hold a line at some point in the East), or a heavily fortified Eastern border with a hostile Soviet Union at best, I'm sure the Germans would eventually have to come to some sort of terms with Britain.

    At any rate, I'm talking about the absurd notion that the Japanese or Germans were capable, or even interested in, occupying North America.

    Yeah, I hear that Turtledove has made a niche for himself in the alternative history biz. But like I hinted, every time I read alternative history I get a sense that the story is based more on national myths than actual historical circumstances.


    Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 35 by Taz, posted 11-08-2006 1:07 AM Taz has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 43 by Taz, posted 11-08-2006 1:17 PM Chiroptera has responded

    Taz
    Member (Idle past 1458 days)
    Posts: 5069
    From: Zerus
    Joined: 07-18-2006


    Message 43 of 60 (362638)
    11-08-2006 1:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 42 by Chiroptera
    11-08-2006 8:24 AM


    Re: the wisdom (or lack of same) concerning war
    Chiroptera writes:

    Except the Eastern portions of Europe, you mean. And with the constant fighting in the East at worst (assuming without US involvement the Germans would have been able to halt the Soviets' counteroffensive and hold a line at some point in the East), or a heavily fortified Eastern border with a hostile Soviet Union at best, I'm sure the Germans would eventually have to come to some sort of terms with Britain.


    While I agree that they will have to come to some kind of seize fire agreement with the Soviets, I just don't see the Germans coming to terms with Britain.

    At any rate, I'm talking about the absurd notion that the Japanese or Germans were capable, or even interested in, occupying North America.

    Perhaps not, but the point remains. It is easy for phat to sit there safely surrounded by 2 bigass oceans of the world and the most powerful army ever to have existed and proclaim that it is christ-like to be a pacifist. Now that I think about it, this is perhaps one of the most unempathetic statement I've heard. There are people out there still fighting for survival.

    Sorry, I don't react well to self-righteous proclamations on issues that clearly affects millions of others on a personal manner.


    Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc

    The thread about this map can be found here.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 42 by Chiroptera, posted 11-08-2006 8:24 AM Chiroptera has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 44 by Chiroptera, posted 11-08-2006 1:50 PM Taz has not yet responded

    Chiroptera
    Member
    Posts: 6631
    From: Oklahoma
    Joined: 09-28-2003
    Member Rating: 4.8


    Message 44 of 60 (362647)
    11-08-2006 1:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 43 by Taz
    11-08-2006 1:17 PM


    Re: the wisdom (or lack of same) concerning war
    quote:
    Perhaps not, but the point remains. It is easy for phat to sit there safely surrounded by 2 bigass oceans of the world and the most powerful army ever to have existed and proclaim that it is christ-like to be a pacifist. Now that I think about it, this is perhaps one of the most unempathetic statement I've heard. There are people out there still fighting for survival.

    Ah, I see. I am reminded by Alexander Cockburn (I think) speaking about people saying that the Palestinians should renounce violence and attempt to reach their goals through peaceful means: "No one who is not willing to go there and stand shoulder to shoulder with them in their struggle should be telling them how they should go about it."


    Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 43 by Taz, posted 11-08-2006 1:17 PM Taz has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 45 by Mespo, posted 11-08-2006 4:07 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

    Mespo
    Member (Idle past 1051 days)
    Posts: 158
    From: Mesopotamia, Ohio, USA
    Joined: 09-19-2002


    Message 45 of 60 (362665)
    11-08-2006 4:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 44 by Chiroptera
    11-08-2006 1:50 PM


    Wisdom (or lack thereof) from a Vet
    Most teen-age or early twenty-somethings that go into the military are invincible. Bullets bounce off their chests. Death is what happens to someone else. No one enlists to die. To quote General Patton, "No one ever won a war dying for his country. You make the other poor son-of-a-bitch die for HIS country."

    Education has nothing to do with it. The officer corps of the US military is among the best educated, best trained and best motivated in the world. At the other end of the education spectrum, even the lowliest grunt can still read "This side toward the enemy" on a claymore mine.

    So why go? I belonged to the draft-age Vietnam generation. I went because enlisting in the Navy and getting 3 hot meals a day, a hot shower and a clean bunk sure as hell beat mucking around in a rice patty. My choice. I would like to hear from anyone out there who is of the all volunteer generation who served.

    For the arm chair admirals and generals out there, let me say that I didn't enlist to serve. For me, it was matter of getting it over with the safest way possible. And I did. I learned very quickly that you don't serve your country, you serve the Commander-In-Chief. He's the one who can tell you to kiss your ass goodbye. It just gets passed down the line to the non-comm who barks in your face.

    For me, it wasn't pride, it wasn't glory, it was simply survival. Would I serve in an all volunteer military. NO. Not an angry no. Not a HELL NO. Just no.

    And this Iraq war? It is sad. Very sad. Most gung-ho patriots out there haven't the slightest idea what a battle field looks like or smells like. Carnage is pixels on a TV screen. You have no idea. You just don't. I find it interesting that some of the greatest "peace-niks" are in fact the top brass of our military. They know.

    (:raig


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 44 by Chiroptera, posted 11-08-2006 1:50 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 49 by anglagard, posted 11-08-2006 7:46 PM Mespo has not yet responded
     Message 50 by Omnivorous, posted 11-08-2006 8:18 PM Mespo has not yet responded

      
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