The Fate Of Jesus Followers

well, at least you're honest about it. A lot of Christians out there present the 'apostles were martyred for their faith' argument as if it was undisputed fact. It's so much easier to just believe. Believing is snug and comfortable. Doubting takes courage and true honesty to oneself. ..tsk, tsk...what would baby Jesus think? I may be sinful but I'm not angry and I'm not prejudiced. Sorry to disappoint you. I've got another thread on Christian Pride somewhere, feel free to join in.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the bug and some days you'll be the windscreen."

Well put! I am always willing to work with such humble and honest seekers as yourself. I should not have said I do not have proof.I should have said, "I do not have the kind of proof that such a powerful and exalted prosecutor as yourself demands." I instead offer you sir, the proof that God Himself finds reasonable in such an audacious search as for truth. One that requires you and I to admit the most obvious fact of all within the depths of our being, and to Himself. That we are not God."Now that I said what I should have (which will make no difference to you) I remind you, that I went on to elaborate on the first hand proof I received for myself. Now, I am a reasonable man, and confess that it is understandable that you would scoff at such unconventional and unscientific reasoning which nakedly attempts to manipulate your conscious, but God is very unconventional.This Something testable for you as well.I see no need for the vitriol. But give me whatever it is you wish. everything is food for me.

delete double post mystery glitch!Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Sorry Phat but your post had nothing to do with either Archer or Robs messages. Rob throws in a string of totally off topic sermons into ever single post he makes. He is just babbling.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Your point, Phat, is well taken by me. I should make a habit of browsing EvC by Forums more rather than by All Topics.We still have the matter of the OP. A question was asked that one would expect knowledgable Christians to find juicy and welcome.We are often told all the early disciples died maryrs' deaths. This assertion is often put forward in support of other propositions.I have no problem with it being true, if it is. But how does anyone know? I have yet to see any credible sources cited as evidence. No Scriptures tell them this.People seem to 'know' this happened only because someone in Sunday School told them and they never thought to question it. The philosophy seems to be 'Joe Schmoe said it, I believe it, and that settles it.' If one looks to religious tradition as authoritative and intends to respond to the OP, here are some of the questions I see that come up:-- How far back can this tradition about martyrdom be traced?-- Which church's tradition are we talking about?-- Which church's tradition counts as authoritative? How does one decide this?-- Are church traditions infallible? If God steers their development, why not? If God does not steer their development, on what basis does one trust them?-- How does one decide which traditions one accepts and which traditions one does not?_____Edited by Archer Opterix, : Concision.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

In the search for something substantial to discuss. I did a little Googling. As noted earlier, Josephus provides a source for the martyrdom of James, brother of Jesus, and The Acts of the Apostles describes the martyrdom of Stephen.The individual fates of the twelve disciples, or of any other witnesses of Jesus' ministry, indeed appears lost to history. Traditional hearsay is all anyone has.For Protestant Christians that tradition was effectively recounted and codified in Fox's Book of Martyrs. (The name of the author is spelled both with and without the 'e'.) This Reformation-era document (ca. 1560) really was an exercise in myth-making. Fox intended to link the fates of John Wycliffe and other Protestant reformers with those of martyrs in Christianity's past. He did an effective job of it, and Protestants have cited his Book of Martyrs ever since.Historical sources? Lacking. Maybe Bartholomew really was beaten and crucified in India as John Fox tells us. Or maybe he went back to his fishing nets after Jesus was arrested and was never heard from again, and subsequent storytellers smoothed over that awkward detail. We'd never know.This academic site provides excellent information on the development of religious beliefs in the Roman Empire:

The ORB: Online Reference for Medieval Studies
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Note especially the discussion in this essay:

Bernadette McNary-Zak. 'Early Christian Doctrine on Jesus Christ'
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An excerpt:

quote:

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There is little evidence for many of these early persecutions. The Roman historian, Tacitus, records that persecution under Emperor Nero was due to his blaming the impurity of the Christians in Rome for the burning of that city in 64 CE. Persecution of Christians under Emperor Domitian revolved around charges that they refused to worship an image of the emperor as "Lord and God."

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A letter dated ca. 112 CE from Pliny the Younger, governor of Bithynia (northern Asia Minor), seeks the advice of Emperor Trajan on how to handle the Christians in the area. Pliny explains that Christianity had spread widely in the towns and countryside of his province and that its spread has resulted in empty pagan temples. Several concerned citizens had appealed to Pliny who decided to execute some Christians who were not Roman citizens and to arrest and send to Rome for trial other Christians who were Roman citizens. Should the mere profession of Christianity have been sufficient grounds for the deaths of these persons? Could a Christian be forgiven after recanting? Pliny is certain that his course of action thus far has been appropriate. He writes that the killing of Christians was merited by the simple fact that they had been stubborn in their refusal to recant and, in this, failed to obey political authority. Trajan's response leaves too many of Pliny's queries unanswered. Trajan tells Pliny to persecute Christians only under the following conditions: if a Roman citizen charged someone with being a Christian, the accused could be tried and punished if found guilty. Pardon should be granted for those accused who offer prayers to the gods.

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Religious persecutions took place in the Roman Empire. No one disputes this. Administrative dispatches about executions being carried out solely to suppress people's religious beliefs make for depressing reading indeed.Still, Pliny's reference to 'empty pagan temples' makes it clear the Christians causing all the concern were Gentiles. He's not targeting eyewitnesses to Jesus' ministry. These were converts.____Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo repair.Edited by Archer Opterix, : URL.Edited by Archer Opterix, : Clarity.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

It occurs to me that Cook was killed in Hawaii and Magellan in the Philippines - but their deaths were caused by cultural misunderstandings, not by what they stood for.If Bartholomew et al. were killed for using the wrong fork, the it-must-be-true-because-they-died-for-it thesis is not supported.

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Indeed. There is that matter of cause.The Jewish revolt that led to the destruction of Jerusalem (70 CE) presents an interesting situation. It precipitated an empire-wide persecution of Jews.Disciples of Jesus still living at this time faced a real possibility of martyrdom--not for their Christianity, but for their Judaism.___Edited by Archer Opterix, : Brev.Edited by Archer Opterix, : concision.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

This whole issue of the evidence of the fate of the early church leaders (apostles in particular) is questionable.It is admittedly not an argument that proves the point being made in the strict definition of proof that Archer, Jar, and Ringo et al demand. Even so, to what do we account the willingness of Jesus Himself to undergo such a death? Even Peter could not understand it, rebuked Jesus at the mention of it, and fought His arrest, until Christ Himself told him to put down his sword.And to what do we attribute the willingness of countless Christians, who to this very day, lay down their lives peaceably for the Gospel.Perhaps this is a better topic to make the point, and deserves a thread of it's own.Faith and belief please...A copy has been made to the proposed new topics.Edited by AdminJar, : No reason given.

Rob that has NOTHING to do with the thread.

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Now how is this related to the topic?Seems like a cowardly attack more than anything. A blatent attempt to taunt based on opinion and inuendo. Isn't that a violation of EVC moderation guidelines?It is a shame that EVC would allow such a bigot to rule the roost. An obvious conflict of interest. Not that I am suprised.And if this message is off topic, so is the message it is in reply to.I don't suppose Jar will suspend himself? No, only a real prophet would do that! Only the true Christ and those of his Spirit have such courage.So go ahead and enable your rules and punishments. Take vengeance on the rebels who dare to question your authority. I can face the light of day. And the light shines even in the darkness, though the darkness has not understood it!This is a charade if I ever saw one...What is more important...?That the topic be systematically stabilized at the expense of resolution?Or that the topic flow from one topic to the next, in search of an answer to the thread?The topic is important. But only because we are searching for answers.Let's not try to cover them up by abusing the purpose of the law.

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"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)

Rob, you have been asked repeatedly to stay on topic and quit turning every thread into your personal pulpit. You have been asked repeatedly to STOP sending members emails of your sermons and whining.You are now banned.

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AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

Alas, babblin'!

Many would say that militant Christianity is a cultural misunderstanding.The militants would declare it a spiritual war.The other guys would consider the militants.

What do you mean by "militant" Christianity? Going into all the world to preach the gospel is not inherently "militant", nor does it inherently cause cultural misunderstandings.Your own OP quotes: My point was that those disciples might have been killed for smiling at another man's wife, or for not taking off their shoes in a temple, or for wearing the wrong gang colours. It might not have had anything to do with Christianity at all, "militant" or otherwise.Why does your source assume that a violent death is related to the victim's beliefs? Maybe a rich white guy will get mugged even if he doesn't believe in the resurrection.

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