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Author Topic:   Why Evolution is science
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 16 of 200 (364249)
11-16-2006 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by DivineBeginning
11-16-2006 10:30 PM


I trust you have access to dates and locations of these momentous occasions where speciation occurred in a lab environment. Right? Something this huge scientifically should be documented.
It's so common it hardly makes the news anymore. For an example of how well documented it is I refer to Aig:
Arguments we think creationists should NOT use
Arguments to Avoid Topic | Answers in Genesis
quote:
“No new species have been produced.”
This is not true ” new species have been observed to form.
Acknowledged by AiG: still want to argue this point?
The problem with abiogenesis is that an animal left on its own will never in the realm of probability mutate significantly enough to make a difference.
Abiogenesis has nothing to do with mutations in existing life - that is evolution. Abiogensis is about the development of life by natural means.
And the fact that this has absolutely nothing to do with evolution - animals do not mutate into new organisms - means you are arguing against a straw man and not reality.
The astronomically high number of cells in advanced animals combined with the possible amount of permutations leads to impossible odds.
The problems with probabilities is that in order to calculate them you need to know all the possibilities. I suggest you read the old improbable probability problem for a number of problems associated with creationist probability calculations.
Being a mathematics professor, I would think that you would be able to see this.
Then you should also be able to spot the false assumptions and improper calculations used.
Mathematics essentially doesn't allow for the possibility of helpful mutations.
It also cannot rule it out.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but mathematics is not reality, and it has no power over reality. If a mathematical model fails to predict what you see in reality then the mathematical model is wrong, not the reality.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-16-2006 10:30 PM DivineBeginning has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-16-2006 11:59 PM RAZD has replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5521 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 17 of 200 (364252)
11-16-2006 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by DivineBeginning
11-16-2006 11:30 PM


Re: What???
Yes, I am aware they lie...especially in regards to radioactive dating. This is the biggest joke ever to hit the field. The numbers and data can be manipulated so as to achieve a desired result. This was explained to me by a scientist..Jay Gould.
For the whole field of radioactive dating to be a big joke it would take much more then some idividuals lying to get some grat money. It would take a huge conspiracy by a large chunk of the scientific community. Do you have any evidence that such a conspiracy actually exists?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-16-2006 11:30 PM DivineBeginning has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-17-2006 12:02 AM fallacycop has replied

  
DivineBeginning
Member (Idle past 6027 days)
Posts: 100
Joined: 11-16-2006


Message 18 of 200 (364254)
11-16-2006 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by RAZD
11-16-2006 11:33 PM


The problems with probabilities is that in order to calculate them you need to know all the possibilities.
Ahh come on!! You know that is a bunch of malarkey. I majored in mathematics. I know all about probabilities. You don't have to know all the possibilities...there are computers that with the data can compute the number of possibilities. Give me a break.
Also, just because new species are being found daily (if that) that doesn't mean that they evolved from anything at all. They may have been around from the beginning of time. Like some of the new species of fish they find in the depths of the ocean.
Re: the AiG, That site has some good points, but the one about entropy is a joke. There is a reason why it is called a LAW. Everything follows it. They haven't disproved it...they can't. Food breaking down into it's components doesn't show that chaos is good. The quality of energy is still going down...just like the law says it will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by RAZD, posted 11-16-2006 11:33 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by fallacycop, posted 11-17-2006 12:06 AM DivineBeginning has replied
 Message 27 by Chiroptera, posted 11-17-2006 12:22 AM DivineBeginning has replied
 Message 35 by RAZD, posted 11-17-2006 12:22 PM DivineBeginning has not replied

  
DivineBeginning
Member (Idle past 6027 days)
Posts: 100
Joined: 11-16-2006


Message 19 of 200 (364255)
11-17-2006 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by fallacycop
11-16-2006 11:55 PM


Re: What???
Yes, there are a couple of books that I don't happen to own, but have read. They are by scientists that have studied evolution for years and finally confessed to the lies they had been telling to themselves and the public about how evolution is a dead end. It has no merit. They couldn't prove it. They're great books. I'll get the titles and get back to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by fallacycop, posted 11-16-2006 11:55 PM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by fallacycop, posted 11-17-2006 12:12 AM DivineBeginning has not replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5521 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 20 of 200 (364256)
11-17-2006 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by DivineBeginning
11-16-2006 11:59 PM


AiG, That site has some good points, but the one about entropy is a joke. There is a reason why it is called a LAW. Everything follows it. They haven't disproved it...they can't. Food breaking down into it's components doesn't show that chaos is good. The quality of energy is still going down...just like the law says it will.
The point here isn't that the laws of thermodinamics don`t always work.
The point is that the theory of evolution does not violate the laws of thermodynamics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-16-2006 11:59 PM DivineBeginning has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-17-2006 12:11 AM fallacycop has replied

  
DivineBeginning
Member (Idle past 6027 days)
Posts: 100
Joined: 11-16-2006


Message 21 of 200 (364257)
11-17-2006 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by fallacycop
11-17-2006 12:06 AM


what do you mean it doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics? Of course it does. If entropy is increasing how can animals evolve into something more complex? This is the main argument (on the physics side of things anyway). This is why mammals don't give birth to full sized adults. All the information needed to make that organism is contained in the very first merging of the male and female parts. Then as time goes by, you have a decrease in the quality, or increase in entropy. The amount of information/energy is still there, just in a different form. This happens all the time. Oh, one of the books is called Darwin on Trial by Phillip E. Johnson. It's really good...you should read it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by fallacycop, posted 11-17-2006 12:06 AM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Chiroptera, posted 11-17-2006 12:16 AM DivineBeginning has replied
 Message 24 by fallacycop, posted 11-17-2006 12:17 AM DivineBeginning has not replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5521 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 22 of 200 (364258)
11-17-2006 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by DivineBeginning
11-17-2006 12:02 AM


Re: What???
Yes, there are a couple of books that I don't happen to own, but have read. They are by scientists that have studied evolution for years and finally confessed to the lies they had been telling to themselves and the public about how evolution is a dead end. It has no merit. They couldn't prove it. They're great books. I'll get the titles and get back to you.
is that supposed to be a response to my question about whether you believe there is a conspiracy among scientists to fabricate radiactive dating techniques? I don`t see the connection...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-17-2006 12:02 AM DivineBeginning has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 200 (364259)
11-17-2006 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by DivineBeginning
11-17-2006 12:11 AM


quote:
If entropy is increasing how can animals evolve into something more complex?
Exactly the same way that an embryo can develop into a full grown adult animal. Guess what -- entropy is increasing in this instance, too.

Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-17-2006 12:11 AM DivineBeginning has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-17-2006 12:20 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5521 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 24 of 200 (364260)
11-17-2006 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by DivineBeginning
11-17-2006 12:11 AM


what do you mean it doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics?
I mean exactly what I said. It doesn`t violate the laws of thermodynamics. New life forms can evolve while the entropy of the universe steadily grows. One thing does not prevent the other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-17-2006 12:11 AM DivineBeginning has not replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 200 (364261)
11-17-2006 12:19 AM


Gish Gallop alert folk, Gish Gallop.
The topic is "Why Evolution is Science". Try to stick to the topic or else. All these excursions into entropy and such have NOTHING to do with the topic.
Now please head back in that direction.

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  • Replies to this message:
     Message 28 by Chiroptera, posted 11-17-2006 12:24 AM AdminJar has not replied

      
    DivineBeginning
    Member (Idle past 6027 days)
    Posts: 100
    Joined: 11-16-2006


    Message 26 of 200 (364262)
    11-17-2006 12:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 23 by Chiroptera
    11-17-2006 12:16 AM


    oh come on!! You're better than that!! An animal growing into a mature version of itself isn't even close to the same as something changing into something that has a totally different genetic structure!! Give me more of a challenge!!
    Edited by AdminJar, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by Chiroptera, posted 11-17-2006 12:16 AM Chiroptera has not replied

      
    Chiroptera
    Inactive Member


    Message 27 of 200 (364263)
    11-17-2006 12:22 AM
    Reply to: Message 18 by DivineBeginning
    11-16-2006 11:59 PM


    quote:
    I majored in mathematics.
    So did I. In fact, I teach college level mathematics.
    -
    quote:
    I know all about probabilities.
    Cool. I'm teaching a course in probability this coming spring.
    -
    I also have experience in scientific modelling, so I know a little bit about the weaknesses of mathematical calculations and models. In fact, earlier today I just happened to write a little post discussing the proper place of models in scientific investigations.

    Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 18 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-16-2006 11:59 PM DivineBeginning has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 29 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-17-2006 12:25 AM Chiroptera has not replied

      
    Chiroptera
    Inactive Member


    Message 28 of 200 (364264)
    11-17-2006 12:24 AM
    Reply to: Message 25 by AdminJar
    11-17-2006 12:19 AM


    Gish Gallop alert folk -- more like trolling
    Okay, I will desist.

    Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by AdminJar, posted 11-17-2006 12:19 AM AdminJar has not replied

      
    DivineBeginning
    Member (Idle past 6027 days)
    Posts: 100
    Joined: 11-16-2006


    Message 29 of 200 (364265)
    11-17-2006 12:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 27 by Chiroptera
    11-17-2006 12:22 AM


    Hey, it has been a true pleasure debating with you. I hope we can chat more later. Up till a few days ago, I didn't know such cool forums existed. I appreciate all your input. I have learned too.
    Thanks. I'm turning in now.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 27 by Chiroptera, posted 11-17-2006 12:22 AM Chiroptera has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 31 by AdminNWR, posted 11-17-2006 12:39 AM DivineBeginning has replied

      
    Lithodid-Man
    Member (Idle past 2931 days)
    Posts: 504
    From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
    Joined: 03-22-2004


    Message 30 of 200 (364266)
    11-17-2006 12:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 15 by DivineBeginning
    11-16-2006 11:30 PM


    Re: What???
    DivineBeginner writes:
    Yes, I am aware they lie...especially in regards to radioactive dating. This is the biggest joke ever to hit the field. The numbers and data can be manipulated so as to achieve a desired result. This was explained to me by a scientist..Jay Gould.
    I am very interested! By Jay Gould I assume you mean Stephen Jay Gould? I would like to hear more about this. Was this in a book or personally? If personally I would like to hear about it (when, where, what did he say?), if in a book which one? This topic is interesting to me. Thanks

    Wanda: To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people. I've known sheep who could outwit you. I've worn dresses with higher IQs, but you think you're an intellectual, don't you, ape?
    Otto: Apes don't read philosophy.
    Wanda: Yes they do, Otto, they just don't understand it.
    "A Fish Called Wanda"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 15 by DivineBeginning, posted 11-16-2006 11:30 PM DivineBeginning has not replied

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