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Author | Topic: Haggard thread #2 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2195 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: lol! What am I, some fluffer?
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5845 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
if we're ever to win any converts from among the anti-gay bigots then we're going to have to show them what they could lose in this fight.
Nice point and I think it may be argued they can lose more than just their credibility in this fight. I do find it interesting that the minister admitted religion's only real commodity is moral authority. One wonders what his stance is on EvC. holmes "What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Haggard headed on long journey
The article says that:DenverPost writes: Those who have guided public figures and religious leaders through their darkest moments say Haggard's road ahead requires honesty, humility, rest, submission to authority and - above all else - time. The outcome - possibly several years down the road - could range from retreating to private life to a second act for Haggard. The evangelical Christian world is populated by rehabilitated figures such as Watergate felon Chuck Colson, who runs a prison ministry, and disgraced PTL founder Jim Bakker, who has a TV show again. (...)"We are not very good as a church with knowing how to do restoration,...We either want to sweep it under the rug and say it's no big deal or we want to make it impossible." Haggard's restoration is to include a clinical exploration of his sexuality, possibly including a polygraph test and consulting with a psychologist, church officials say. Haggard has said he is not gay. "There is a tendency to say, 'A heterosexual affair, any of us could do that,"' Campolo said. "But there is not the same grace shown to people who commit a homosexual act. Somehow this is put into a super-sin category." The church needs to deal with sexual issues better than Focus On The Family has been able to do. Haggard has the chance to win a whole new group of converts if he conquers his biggest sin: Dishonesty
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
As you can see, homosexuality is all about sexuality which we should expect and almost about nothing else, completely different from their heterosexual counterparts. Many homosexuals identity is literally wrapped in considering themselves to be gay, and this self-identity seems to supersede anything else. How is that different than a married man thinking of himself first and foremost as a husband? Defining himself by his participation in a heterosexual relationship? I would expect this. Or thinking of himself first and foremost as a father. What I wouldn't expect is someone to define themselves by their sexuality.
I think you said you had kids. When you meet new people, how long does it take before you're telling them about your kids? Probably not that long, right? I'm sure you have pictures of them at your workplace. If the subject comes up, I will share that with people. I don't offer that unsolicited unless something specific directs toward that topic.
In other words, you're as wrapped up in being a hetersexual and showing people the proof you've had sex with a woman as anybody else is. No, I'm not wrapped up in being straight. Because my husbandry has to do with my family, not with my sexuality. The last thing that would pop into my head about mentioning my kids is to "prove that I had sex with a woman."
You're straight, and more importantly, you're so wrapped up in heteronormativity, that you don't see how you promote your heterosexuality just as much as you think gay people are doing. Let me explain what I mean. I'm going to direct to some websites and tell me if what I'm saying makes sense. 1. Leading Gay Realtor, LGBTQ Real Estate Agent Directory, GayRealEstate.com Okay, "gay" real estate???? As opposed to what? Straight real estate? What purpose does it serve to have the word "gay" in the title when most people would disassociate real estate from their sexuality. 2. Forbidden Gay Mart???? I first saw this while living in San Diego. Okay, now what purpose does it serve to have "gay" in your title? 3. Package Travel Deals & Last Minute Vacations | Orbitz Gay travel? As opposed to what? Straight travel? What does traveling have anything to do with ones sexual preference? 4. http://www.gaysports.com/ Gay sports? Now, these are just four instances of what I'm talking about. Why is the self-identity wrapped up in something that supposedly is completely natural? If you'll also notice, it usually takes about two seconds before something sexual in nature comes up, like a sweaty, half-naked body. What purpose does it serve?
quote: It's pride in surviving oppression, in surviving adversity. Yeah, I'm just not so sure about that.
Feel the pride I'm not really seeing the adversity Do you really find that so hard to understand? Yes... Yes, I do. Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I know what you mean, nemesis. I know that I will get a lot of flak for saying this, and I dont have any studies on hand to back up my assertion, but many of the men involved in the gay pride movements are emotionally immature.
They defend their right to express their inborn gayness as much as a 17 year old would argue with his Father to be allowed to stay out after midnite to express his heterosexual urges.
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berberry Inactive Member |
Phat writes:
quote: Oh yeah, just like many of the men involved in the leadership of christian churches. Consider the eponym of this thread, for instance. I love it when people choose to express our common humanity rather than highlight our differences. Thank you for that, Phat. ;D W.W.E.D.?
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5845 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
I will get a lot of flak for saying this
Incoming.
many of the men involved in the gay pride movements are emotionally immature.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that many people involved in every and all kind of movements are emotionally immature. Who isn't immature? What is your measure? How do you know what people are like in the gay pride movement vs everywhere else? I remember Tal trying to paint all Iraq War protestors with the picture of the guy in a clown outfit. Is that the kind of experience you have with knowing the people in the entire gay pride movement? As a contrast explain the maturity level expressed by "Kiss me I'm Irish", or "We don't celebrate Halloween because we're good Xians". And finally, why are only men in those movements immature?
They defend their right to express their inborn gayness as much as a 17 year old would argue with his Father to be allowed to stay out after midnite to express his heterosexual urges.
I find that analogy rather revealing and not so hot for you. Otherwise, your post was quite mature. Heheheh. Edited by holmes, : gay pride holmes "What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5845 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
I'm not really seeing the adversity
He said they were celebrating their survival of oppression and adversity. Your linked images are of the survivors. You want some images of people that were beaten and killed? holmes "What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I admit it. I wanted to stir the pot a bit. Haggard was as emotionally immature as anyone. By the way, what does WWED mean>
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nator Member (Idle past 2195 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: You mean these men?:
Or the man whi installed these urinals, and the hundreds of men who used them and didn't say a word about them?
Oh wait, none of these men are represented as specifically gay, but they routinely gather in large arenas and stadiums and act utterly emotionally immature.
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nator Member (Idle past 2195 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
And let's not forget hyst a few of the ones killed for being gay:
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5845 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
First, I saw the fluffer joke above. Heheheh... nice.
As for your post to phat, I was also having a good laugh until I reached the picture of the urinal and this comment...
Or the man whi installed these urinals, and the hundreds of men who used them and didn't say a word about them? Now I guess I could tease you about your tendency to bring in feminist/prudism no matter the subject, but I'm going to skip it to try and put this particular myth to rest. The inventor of the mouth urinal was a WOMAN. She is a dutch artist, and I believe (though I could be wrong) she might be gay. While I am not going to argue that pissing into such a urinal is mature, what is mature about pissing into any other toilet? In holland, if not across europe, they seem to take bathrooms with a sense of humor. There are all sorts of goofy toiletseats or other toilet paraphenalia. There simply are no inherent political or derogatory meanings to such things. I remember recently seeing a toilet brush holder where you placed the brush in the mouth of a man (think of the potential political ramifications of that). And all over a popular them park you have to put garbage into the mouths of male beings. In any case the dutch artist of the toilet thought it was a funny kitsch thing in the same vein as all the rest. She does not even view it as a female looking mouth. And I sort of agree it reminds me more of a "mick jagger" mouth. It is cartoonish. A joke. Humor. She was suprised when there was suddenly an uproar about them, and thought the people who complained were rather immature. Very U.S. This certainly raises the question of if people saying nothing about them were the ones who were immature. Edited by holmes, : certain holmes "What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5845 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
I thought about posting pics of adversity too.
One of those people pictured was beaten right nearby where I live. When it happened I had to think it could just as well have been me. I can't say it made me scared but it was spooky. On the day of the gay pride parade I was confronted by a guy clearly looking to pick a fight with gays. Ironically he chose me as a "fag" despite the fact that I was walking with my gf. Maybe he had bidar. A transexual two blocks from me was murdered. And this in an extremely gay friendly city. holmes "What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)
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nator Member (Idle past 2195 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
I do accept your explanation regarding the cultural difference regarding whimsy in bathroom fixtures.
I do, however, think it's a bit naive to be surprised that nobody would think that putting open mouths (that appeared to me like a woman's with red lipstick on) over men's urinals would be off-putting to many. Perhaps it is such a "US" attitude because there is a long history of the acceptance and manufacture of such objects here with the definite intent to degrade or demean. I mean, there are many companies devoted to selling nothing but rude, degrading sexist, racist, and gay-hating t-shirts, for example.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1492 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Or thinking of himself first and foremost as a father. What I wouldn't expect is someone to define themselves by their sexuality. Where do you think children come from, NJ? Parthenogenesis? The stork?
No, I'm not wrapped up in being straight. Because my husbandry has to do with my family, not with my sexuality. Same thing. Where do you think your family came from?
Now, these are just four instances of what I'm talking about. Why is the self-identity wrapped up in something that supposedly is completely natural? Because they're being oppressed. They feel like they have to hide a portion of who they are so as to not be disenfranchised or discriminated against out in the straight world, and so naturally, businesses pop up to cater to that need. It's not hard to understand. It's not about constructing an identity only about being gay; it's about being part of an environment where being gay is something that is treated as normal. Homosexuals don't get that from society, mostly thanks to people like you.
If you'll also notice, it usually takes about two seconds before something sexual in nature comes up, like a sweaty, half-naked body. What purpose does it serve? Sex sells. What, you've never looked in a magazine or turned on a TV? It's hard to imagine where you live where you can see an ad for literally anything at all that doesn't stand a half chance of having a sexy woman in it. Even gay businesses have to advertise and compete with each other. Sex sells for gay men just like for straight men.
Yeah, I'm just not so sure about that. What do your pictures have to do with that? I literally don't understand your argument. What do cowboys have to do with not being under adversity?
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