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Author Topic:   Do I have a choice? (determinism vs libertarianism vs compatibilism)
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4780 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 80 of 210 (358453)
10-24-2006 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by nwr
10-24-2006 12:57 AM


nwr writes:
Is the set of primes non-random?
Yes. You can get the set of all primes by following a very simple recipe: Take the set of all numbers and remove everything that isn't prime.
nwr writes:
I can't see how "random" or "nonrandom" applies to most sets
Probably because all the ones you're thinking of are nonrandom.
nwr writes:
Being able to model something is not the same as saying that it follows a formula.
You're right. While the former contains the latter, it says some other things as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by nwr, posted 10-24-2006 12:57 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by nwr, posted 10-24-2006 8:07 AM DominionSeraph has replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4780 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 114 of 210 (358693)
10-25-2006 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by nwr
10-24-2006 8:07 AM


nwr writes:
We can apply "random" or "nonrandom" to the method we use to generate a set. But it doesn't make sense to apply it to the set.
Ahhh... I see the problem. You're disassociating the set from the method. I'm not, as you should've gotten from, "expression of."

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DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4780 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 115 of 210 (358695)
10-25-2006 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by nwr
10-25-2006 12:13 AM


Re: Evolution vs. AI
nwr writes:
You can setup rules which specify what will be considered pragmatic. And once you setup rules, you have managed to simulate pragmatic decisions in terms of truth/logic decisions. That's sufficient for simulations of evolution.
It wasn't a simulation of evolution -- it was evolution itself.
Kevin Kelly -- Chapter 15: Artificial Evolution

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DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4780 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 126 of 210 (358917)
10-26-2006 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by nwr
10-25-2006 8:30 PM


Re: Evolution vs. Artificial Evolution
nwr writes:
It is all done in an artificial environment, as part of an abstract computation. In that environment, "works" just means that the programmer says it works.
I see you don't have a clue about self-replicating programs.

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DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4780 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 163 of 210 (360440)
11-01-2006 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by JavaMan
10-31-2006 7:59 AM


Re: Hard Determinism isn't Science
JavaMan writes:
But why are you making the unwarranted assumption that the learned experience inevitably causes the final decision? That doesn't leave any room for the decision-making itself - so what's the point of having a decision-making apparatus?
You're looking at this the wrong way. You're comparing two things -- the universe as it is and the universe as it is not; seeing that they lead to different places, and using that to support that the outcome isn't inevitable. The problem is that you're assuming that the universe can change. It can't, as it can only be what it is. It cannot be what it is not.
So, if in order for the outcome to change, the impossible must occur, can the outcome actually change?
Edited by DominionSeraph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by JavaMan, posted 10-31-2006 7:59 AM JavaMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by JavaMan, posted 11-01-2006 12:22 PM DominionSeraph has replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4780 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 165 of 210 (360469)
11-01-2006 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by JavaMan
11-01-2006 12:22 PM


JavaMan writes:
Correction: It can only be what it has been.
Time is included in the universe.
JavaMan writes:
It's precisely the point of disagreement between us that you think that the future is predetermined by what has happened previous to this moment, that nothing that happens in this moment can change what will happen in the future. Whereas I am claiming that my choice is an additional determining factor.
What you will choose is already determined. Since its already included, there's no wait. (and what timestream would the universe be waiting in, anyway?)
Edited by DominionSeraph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by JavaMan, posted 11-01-2006 12:22 PM JavaMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by JavaMan, posted 11-08-2006 7:40 AM DominionSeraph has replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4780 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 171 of 210 (363687)
11-14-2006 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by JavaMan
11-08-2006 7:40 AM


Re: What universe...
JavaMan writes:
I don't know about you, but time is a one-way street for me. I can't go back into the past, and I can only go forward into the future one step at a time.
Your limitations are irrelevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by JavaMan, posted 11-08-2006 7:40 AM JavaMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by JavaMan, posted 11-14-2006 3:44 AM DominionSeraph has replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4780 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 172 of 210 (363690)
11-14-2006 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by JavaMan
11-08-2006 3:58 AM


Re: Hard Determinism isn't Science
JavaMan writes:
The fundamental flaw of hard determinism, as far as I'm concerned, is that it treats cognitive processes as a special case, purely as effects in a chain of cause and effect. In the real physical world, any phenomenon can have causal relations too.
You don't understand the difference between hardware and software?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by JavaMan, posted 11-08-2006 3:58 AM JavaMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by JavaMan, posted 11-14-2006 3:45 AM DominionSeraph has replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4780 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 177 of 210 (363859)
11-15-2006 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by JavaMan
11-14-2006 3:44 AM


Re: What universe...
JavaMan writes:
Irrelevant to who?
To who?
Don't even know the meaning of 'relevant', eh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by JavaMan, posted 11-14-2006 3:44 AM JavaMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by JavaMan, posted 11-15-2006 7:24 AM DominionSeraph has replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4780 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 178 of 210 (363860)
11-15-2006 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by JavaMan
11-14-2006 3:45 AM


JavaMan writes:
Yes I do. What's your point?
No you don't, or you wouldn't be asking that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by JavaMan, posted 11-14-2006 3:45 AM JavaMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by JavaMan, posted 11-15-2006 7:31 AM DominionSeraph has replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4780 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 182 of 210 (363870)
11-15-2006 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by JavaMan
11-15-2006 7:24 AM


JavaMan writes:
You're a bit rude, aren't you?
More than a bit.
JavaMan writes:
Do you want to engage in debate, or do you just want to make snide remarks?
I want you to do better.

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 Message 179 by JavaMan, posted 11-15-2006 7:24 AM JavaMan has not replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4780 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 183 of 210 (363873)
11-15-2006 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by JavaMan
11-15-2006 7:31 AM


Re: Matbe you could explain
JavaMan writes:
Maybe you could explain why your analogy with hardware and software is relevant to my argument?
Software - Wikipedia
"Software fundamentally is the unique image or representation of physical or material alignment that constitutes configuration to or functional identity of a machine,"
Software is a representation of a segment of reality. You can leave the representation out without affecting anything, as it's not real. Software doesn't affect anything -- the physical state of the hardware does as it acts on itself.
So, software is a special case, as it wouldn't be integrated into a deterministic model. That doesn't mean that a deterministic model of a computer that only includes what's really there is flawed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by JavaMan, posted 11-15-2006 7:31 AM JavaMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by nwr, posted 11-15-2006 9:20 AM DominionSeraph has replied
 Message 189 by JavaMan, posted 11-15-2006 3:56 PM DominionSeraph has not replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4780 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 185 of 210 (363884)
11-15-2006 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by JavaMan
11-15-2006 8:02 AM


Re: Violent men
JavaMan writes:
So, I'd argue that we do have freedom to change our behaviour, that changing behaviour is no different to learning a language or learning how to drive a car. It's just a matter of re-programming ourselves.
Don't confuse motion for freedom.
JavaMan writes:
I have the ability to suspend choosing while I judge the merits of following one course of action or another
Did you choose to do that? If so, do you have the ability to suspend choosing whether or not you will suspend choosing while you judge the merits of following one course of action (suspending choosing) or another (not to suspend)?
If so, can you suspend choosing that?
And that?
And that?
"I'm going to judge whether or not best course of action is to judge whether or not the best course of action is to judge whether or not the best course of action is to judge whether or not the best course of action is to judge whether the best course of action is to do A or B."
Edited by DominionSeraph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by JavaMan, posted 11-15-2006 8:02 AM JavaMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by JavaMan, posted 11-15-2006 11:34 AM DominionSeraph has replied
 Message 190 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-16-2006 11:58 AM DominionSeraph has not replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4780 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 186 of 210 (363885)
11-15-2006 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by nwr
11-15-2006 9:20 AM


The difference lies in their reality. Hardware is real, software not. Understanding this should lead to an understanding of why software would be left out of a model of reality.
Edited by DominionSeraph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by nwr, posted 11-15-2006 9:20 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by nwr, posted 11-15-2006 9:48 AM DominionSeraph has replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4780 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 196 of 210 (364978)
11-20-2006 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by nwr
11-15-2006 9:48 AM


nwr writes:
But how does that connect back to JavaMan's comment. You seemed to think you were refuting that comment.
He implied that it was improper to do such a thing by using it as his rationale for dismissal. By doing the same thing quite properly, I highlighted the hole.
nwr writes:
You are probably making some unstated assumption about cognition and software. But it isn't easy to follow unstated assumptions.
I never claimed to have your ease as a goal.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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