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Author Topic:   Childhood Vaccinations – Necessary or Overkill?
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 31 of 327 (364974)
11-20-2006 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by purpledawn
11-20-2006 4:50 PM


Re: Measles deaths go lower
purpledawn writes:
So when do we get to stop the vaccinations?
Because of our more thorough public health programs in the U.S., some diseases have been virtually eradicated here but remain active elsewhere in the world. The worldwide eradication of a disease is a monumental undertaking.
CDC writes:
Routine smallpox vaccination among the American public stopped in 1972 after the disease was eradicated in the United States. Until recently, the U.S. government provided the vaccine only to a few hundred scientists and medical professionals working with smallpox and similar viruses in a research setting.
After the events of September and October, 2001, however, the U.S. government took further actions to improve its level of preparedness against terrorism. One of many such measures”designed specifically to prepare for an intentional release of the smallpox virus”included updating and releasing a smallpox response plan. In addition, the U.S. government has enough vaccine to vaccinate every person in the United States in the event of a smallpox emergency.
Edited by Omnivorous, : typo

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 32 of 327 (364977)
11-20-2006 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by nator
11-20-2006 5:44 PM


Re: Measles deaths go lower
Well that's another way to read it and probably is more accurate.
I've had a rough day.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 33 of 327 (364981)
11-20-2006 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by purpledawn
11-20-2006 2:49 PM


Re: Vaccination Apologetics
And I'm getting vaccination apologetics.
I'm not sure that people pointing out the hypocrisy of calling for scientific or tangible evidence and then providing absolutely no such standard in your own initial critique should really be considered apologetics. As yet you haven't presented any science to debate just a scattershot of claims backed up by at best secondary sources.
Which means there have been and still are issues to address with vaccines.
And? There are issue in any developing technology including medical technology. We could all stop now and go back to the dark ages but why bother when the homeopaths have that covered.
Is it a problem of combining the strains together?
No, like I said its a problem of giving people the mumps even in a highly atenuated form. It isn't the fact its a vaccine that is the problem it is the fact that its the mumps!! There is work on safer mumps vaccines but nature doesn't seem to be working so hard on producing a kindler gentler mumps whatever your sources say.
Up to 10% of people who get mumps can develop aseptic meningitis (Glazka et al., 1999), compare this to the 1:10,000 incidence rate as a side effect of innoculation with the urabe strain vaccine, thats 1:10 compared to 1:10,000. Even comparing it with the extreme outlying 1:4,000 chance which would you rather take?
Care to tell us where the science is backing the claim that mumps is beneficial? I can see an orphaned reference to a paper from the sixties which sadly I would have to go to the university library to find (West, 1966), did medical science stop then? Oh, no it seems that there have been a number of subsequent studies which failed to support a protective effect (Golan et al., 1979) and some which suggest that mumps could in fact be a risk factor (Menczer et al. 1979; Cramer and Welch, 1983; Chen et al., 1992).
But it needs to be addressed and options provided.
And being withdrawn from use when strains with lesser side effects became available wasn't addressing this in some way.
*On revisiting the site I noticed references to other regions where the Urabe strain was used subsequent to its being withdrawn from use in the UK. There is a paper studying the mass immunisation in San Salvador which covers the Brazilian governments reasons for preferring a MMR using the Urabe strain despite the risk levels for aseptic meningitis (Dourado et al., 2000).
In spite of previous reports,
the Urabe-containing MMR vaccine was previously
judged by the Brazilian National Immunization
Program to be beneficial for use in a mass immuniza-
tion campaign, for reasons that included 1) the relative
rarity of adverse events, 2) the relative cost and possi-
bly higher immunogenicity in comparison with the
Jeryl Lynn-containing MMR vaccine, and
3) the clear net benefit of MMR immunization in a con-
text of high incidence of natural mumps infection and a
consequently high incidence of meningitis.
The level observed in the San Salvador mass immunisation was lower than the previous figures reported, being only 1:14,000.
The real question is why do your sources whitewash the diseases and neglect to mention the incidence of aseptic meningitis as a result of the mumps infection they are encouraging parents to get their children to have while wailing an nashing their teeth over the miniscule comparative risk of the same infection from a vaccination? Not to mention peddling the idea of a cancer protective effect which doesn't seem to have had any scientific traction for 30 years.
As an interesting aside there is some current research into using mumps and measles vaccines as agents to treat ovarian cancer (Myers et al., 2005).
TTFN,
WK
Edited by Wounded King, : Added informatin from San Salvador study

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 327 (364997)
11-20-2006 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by nwr
11-20-2006 1:32 PM


Re: tentative devil's advocate
quote:
The low risk of exposure is a benefit you receive from the society. Don't you have an implied obligation to contribute your share of providing this benefit by vaccinating your children?
Actually, we have precedents for this. People can usually avoid military conscription if they are conscientious objectors. But in most cases they have to provide service in non-lethal (or at least non-military) occupations.
Also, in this country it is illegal to force people to belong to a union. Yet the nonmembers get the benefit of the union's work at negotiating decent contract providing decent working conditions and benefits. Also, usually it is the union which handles grievances for all the employees. So in most cases, the union members pay the regular union dues that pays for the day-to-day expenses of the union, as well as the costs for the meetings, social events, and other strictly union expenses. However, nonmembers are still obliged to pony up the portion of the expenses that go into negotiating and enforcing the contract.
So, if somehow unvaccinated kids are benefitting unfairly from a cost being borne by the vaccinated kids, I suppose their families could be made to share part of that cost.
Although, I'm not sure what increased cost people are bearing by being vaccinated in a society with unvaccinated people. The vaccinated kids are already being protected and, overall, getting a benefit from vaccination. I suppose in the US people might have to pay for their vaccinations out of their own pockets, or pay higher insurance premiums, and families of unvaccinated kids might be required to pay a little bit into this.

Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 35 of 327 (364999)
11-20-2006 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by nwr
11-20-2006 5:08 PM


Re: tentative devil's advocate
I'm not sure what you mean by "improved testing."
I meant testing for its presence in potential carriers. It doesn't have to be every day or every week. If someone comes down with something broad testing could be put in place. Clearly this will mean that some people will have been missed and potentially contract it, but that wouldn't be as much as just letting it travel at will.
At present, mass vaccination is our most effective method of containment. Since you are arguing for containment as an alternative to mass vaccination, it is up to you to suggest an alternative containment method.
As much as I like vaccination (myself, outside the da role I'm playing), I do not consider it true containment. It is a prophylactic which has moderate containment activity.
(back to d.a.) By containment I mean quarantine. Regardless of vaccination for many diseases I believe new diseases (spreading on global scales as they are now) mandate improvements in quarantine procedures. Right now people seem to feel it is a hindrance on rights, and so try to avoid that option. I believe that is backwards thinking. We should be trying to improve the conditions of those within quarantine, rather than avoid the option.
If we had fast testing and aggressive quarantine procedures, why wouldn't diseases such as measles be contained and risk of CONTACT, and so CONTRACTION, and so dire consequnces be reduced?
Since people are arguing that vaccination actually acts as a containment to reduce risk, I guess I should be asking for some evidence for that claim. All I have seen so far is comparisons between risk once contracted vs vaccinated. What is the risk of actually contracting vs risk in vaccination, particularly in areas where some improved medial systems are in place?
If you don't have such a thing, isn't that a hole in your overall claim?
Edited by holmes, : d.a.

holmes
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

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Replies to this message:
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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5521 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 36 of 327 (365004)
11-20-2006 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by nator
11-20-2006 4:12 PM


Re: Measles deaths go lower
quote:
If we hadn't intervened, would mankind have eventually developed an immunity to the disease?
Sure it's possible, but not all that likely.
Actually, not only we would keep evolving over many generations but the illness itself would also (and has been) keep evolving and might get weaker or stronger depending on whichever gave it an evolutionary advantage

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 327 (365008)
11-20-2006 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by nator
11-20-2006 9:43 AM


Re: autism-sorry, long
There's another side to your link coin supportive to vaccines.
Dissident exerpt writes:
The number of recommended vaccines in the Federal immunization schedule has nearly tripled since 1988. The agency now recommends vaccines for 12 diseases. Because some shots must be given more than once, a child may receive as many as 23 shots by age 2 and might receive as many as six shots during a single visit to a doctor.
The biggest source of parental concern about vaccines is the claim that vaccines are linked to a rise in autism rates. For example, in California, between 1987 and 2002, there has been a more than six-fold increase in autism cases, according to a 2003 report by the California Department of Development Services.
Although government “experts” continue to maintain there is no link between autism and vaccines, they offer no alternative theory for the skyrocketing number of cases.
Because the onset of autism usually begins during the period when children are receiving many vaccines, most parents are convinced that vaccines trigger the disorder. Thousands of parents have filed lawsuits in the Court of Federal Claims alleging that thimerosal used in vaccines until 2002 is the cause of autism and a host of other neurological disorders.
Ann Dachel -- A Mother's Perspective
If all these problems are not caused by vaccines, “I wish the medical community would explain where all the damaged children are coming from,” Ann Dachel says.
Anne is from Chippewa Falls, WI. She is a school teacher, a member of the National Autism Association, and the mother of a boy with autism and a daughter who developed epilepsy after receiving a Hepatitis B vaccine.
She firmly believes the Hepatitis B vaccine her daughter Kate received is the direct cause of three years of seizures that followed the vaccine. “No one seems to want to look into the correlation of the use of known neurotoxins in vaccines and the epidemic in neurological disorders among children,” Ann says.
(DV) Pringle: Get Mercury Out of Vaccines -- NOW! - 25k -
Canadian experpt writes:
Canadian health authorities quietly replaced the old mercury containing vaccines given to infants, with two mercury free vaccines, PENTA- 4 vaccines in one (1994) and Pentacel - 5 vaccines in one(1997). The absence of scientific data to prove or disprove harm done to children who have been exposed to dangerous levels of mercury via injectible vaccines is of little consolation to parents whose children were injected with unacceptably high levels of this nerve poison prior to 1994, and who now suffer from neurological disabilities
"The most likely sources of the mercury are maternal dental fillings, maternal fish consumption, consumer products (eye drops, nasal sprays, others), Rho-gam shot, Influenza vaccine during pregnancy, and childhood vaccines. The increase in autism appears to correlate with the increased use of vaccinations. In children who are fully vaccinated, by the sixth month of life they have received more mercury from vaccines than recommended by the EPA. There are many similarities in symptoms between mercury toxicity and autism, including social deficits, language deficits, repetitive behaviors, sensory abnormalities, cognition deficits, movement disorders, and behavioral problems. There are also similarities in physical symptoms, including biochemical, gastrointestinal, muscle tone, eurochemistry, neurophysiology, EEG measurements, and immune system/autoimmunity." (quoted from notes (part 3), taken at the recent DAN! - Defeat Autism Now Conference - Oct./01)
The devastating effects of mercury poisoning are well documented and have been known since the 1930's. To protect their unborn infants from mercury poisoning, pregnant women are advised against eating shellfish and other species of fish contaminated with high levels of mercury and are cautioned about the risks of mercury containing dental amalgam fillings, yet health officials encourage pregnant women to receive flu vaccine injections which contain thimerosal, a mercury compound that can cross the placenta and affect the growing fetus.
For health officials to approve and promote the injection of vaccines which contain neurotoxins that have the potential to injure and destroy the immature brain and nervous system of human infants is tantamount to criminal negligence.
Domain Names, Web Hosting and Online Marketing Services | Network Solutions
Someone asked me in PD's other thread about my refusal to allow my children to receive vaccinations at the school program which some said must be implemented on all. This was before the whistle blowers began exposing the mercury problems et al. As is so often the case, had I relied on the FDA and the money driven health care regime so powerfully intrenched in the medical field my children would've been exposed to the harmful effects noted above and who knows how much it could've affected their bodies and minds.
I've been into wholistic prevention and care of personal health for a long time. Over the decades naturopathy has advanced in America from alleged quakery to respectability to the point that many physicians are implementing it in their practice. Others have left conventional medicine to devote their whole effort on prevention and wholistic whole body healing including diet, herbs, vitamines, exercise et al with wonderful track records. The best is that the side effects are most always all good.
Another relative link writes:
USATODAY.com - Report: MercVaccines: Vaccinations and MercuryMercury causes neurotoxicity in humans, especially in fetuses and small infants whose brains are still developing. The major toxicity of mercury is ...
Vaccines: Vaccinations and Mercury in Vaccines
The better alternative which we used to vaccinations with our boys was to keep a healthy immune system built up via the above and see to it that their diet and life habits were so as to prevent disease. When they did begin to have health problems, we knew what to do naturally to nip it in the bud. This essentially eliminated the need for MDs for us. They're fine to patch up injuries (so long as you eat very light if you end up in the hospital.) Hospital food is generally about as bad as it gets nutritionally speaking as I have observed when visiting patients.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 327 (365013)
11-20-2006 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Chiroptera
11-20-2006 7:02 PM


Re: tentative devil's advocate
Chiroptera writes:
So, if somehow unvaccinated kids are benefitting unfairly from a cost being borne by the vaccinated kids, I suppose their families could be made to share part of that cost.
Who's going to divy up for the lost lives and side effects which we all pay for in the hospitals, crime incidents and physchology ward treatment due to the mistakes of conventional medicine? Conventional medicine burys their mistakes to the tune of scores of thousands of deaths per year just due to prescription drugs alone.
They pile $$ upon $$ into their coffers all the way from the side effects of the first pill/vaccination to the multiplied effects of the drugs prescribed to fix the earlier defective prescriptions. It's a vicious cycle. LOL!

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Chiroptera, posted 11-20-2006 7:02 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 327 (365015)
11-20-2006 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Buzsaw
11-20-2006 7:48 PM


Re: tentative devil's advocate
I'm just responding to nwr's query that the unvaccinated might be receiving benefits, the cost of which are being borne by the vaccinated.
If you don't think that the vaccinations are benefiting the unvaccinated, then you should be debating nwr.

Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 327 (365017)
11-20-2006 8:00 PM


I forgot to mention that way back in the 1940's all the children in the grade school in Wyoming which I attended were given smallpox and diptheria shots. After I got mine I passed out cold just as I returned to the bleachers where we were all seated before being called up. I soon recovered consiousness but was sickish wheasy for most of the day. I was quite a small child. This was not reported to no health officials that I know of and nothing was done since I soon recovered. Since it was not reported, likely many other similar incidents like this were also likely left unreported across the nation.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 327 (365019)
11-20-2006 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Chiroptera
11-20-2006 7:53 PM


Re: tentative devil's advocate
OK, I took it by your statement that you were agreeing to NWR, but I see that is not necessarily the case. Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 42 of 327 (365023)
11-20-2006 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Buzsaw
11-20-2006 8:00 PM


I forgot to mention that way back in the 1940's all the children in the grade school in Wyoming which I attended were given smallpox and diptheria shots. After I got mine I passed out cold just as I returned to the bleachers where we were all seated before being called up.
That was probably a reaction to the smallpox vaccination. That's the worst one I have ever had. They don't routinely vaccinate against smallpox anymore, now that the virus has been eliminated in the wild.

Just say no to McCain 2008; he abandoned principle when he caved on habeus corpus

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 43 of 327 (365029)
11-20-2006 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Silent H
11-20-2006 7:06 PM


Re: tentative devil's advocate
I meant testing for its presence in potential carriers.
Every unvaccinated child is a potential carrier of measles. How often will you test them?
It doesn't have to be every day or every week. If someone comes down with something broad testing could be put in place.
That's too late. And I don't just mean too late for that person. By the time a child has symptoms of measles, he/she has already spread the disease to quite a few others.
By containment I mean quarantine.
When in high school, my daughter attended the Interlochen music camp during the summer. One year, chicken pox spread. As soon as somebody came down with chicken pox, they were taken to the infirmary and isolated from the rest of the campers. That didn't prevent my daughter from coming down with chicken pox at the last week of the camp.
Quarantine won't work for fast spreading diseases like chicken pox and measles, unless you also do a preventative quarantine of all of the likely contacts.

Just say no to McCain 2008; he abandoned principle when he caved on habeus corpus

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 327 (365031)
11-20-2006 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by nwr
11-20-2006 8:30 PM


Re: tentative devil's advocate
Quarantine won't work for fast spreading diseases like chicken pox and measles, unless you also do a preventative quarantine of all of the likely contacts.
Perhaps we could replicate the successes of Mary Mallon and re-establish place like Carville, Louisiana. There will still be the problem of those diseases that are infectious prior to symptoms showing but let's not worry about little things.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 327 (365032)
11-20-2006 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by nwr
11-20-2006 8:17 PM


My worst case was when I was vaccinated against typhoid. I was ill for a day, and it took several more days before I felt completely right again. But we were warned that this was a possibility. And being sick for a day certainly beats actually getting typhoid fever!

Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

This message is a reply to:
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