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Author Topic:   Iraq and the Lessons of Vietnam
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 4 (365039)
11-20-2006 9:38 PM


Anyone hear Kissinger's latest? It goes something like "we can never win in Iraq; therefore, we must keep our troops there."

This is absolutely mind-boggling, and the sad thing is that a lot of republicans will probably believe him. To them, there's never a good reason to take our troops out of harm's way. Once we put them somewhere, that's where they stay. It doesn't matter how much damage it does to our unity as a nation, to our reputation in the world, to the troops and their families or to anyone or anything else. Kissinger acknowledges all of that, yet he says we must stay.

So tonight Keith Olbermann made another of his "Special Comments" during his Countdown show. He talked about how Bush thinks the main lesson of Vietnam was that we didn't stay there long enough, when in fact the lesson was that we stayed there about ten years too long - not exactly a profound revelation but it's something that bears repeating often these days. He then made a point I hadn't thought of in years: even Nixon finally learned the lesson of Vietnam. It was the Soviets who never learned it. That's why they went into Afghanistan.

But of course you've heard this story, and I feel sure you remember how it ended.

I'd post a link to the MSNBC website where Keith's comments are always posted after broadcast, but for some reason I can't get to it just now. I'll try again later, but in the meantime I thought I'd offer the gist of what he had to say for discussion, because I don't think there's any other current event that's more imporant to all of us at this moment than this war and what's going to happen next.

AbE: I still can't get to msnbc.com, but the video of Keith's Special Comment is now available at Crooks & Liars.

Edited by berberry, : added link to Crooks and Liars.


W.W.E.D.?
Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by nwr, posted 11-20-2006 9:54 PM berberry has not yet responded
 Message 3 by Silent H, posted 11-21-2006 5:15 PM berberry has not yet responded

nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 2 of 4 (365043)
11-20-2006 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by berberry
11-20-2006 9:38 PM


Anyone hear Kissinger's latest? It goes something like "we can never win in Iraq; therefore, we must keep our troops there."

At least he got the first part right.

He talked about how Bush thinks the main lesson of Vietnam was that we didn't stay there long enough, ...

That's standard neocon dogma.

Here are what I think were the lessons of Vietnam:

  • A sense of national pride and a resistance to foreign occupation, are very powerful motivating forces;
  • You cannot bring people democracy at the point of a gun. Democracy must come from within. It cannot be imposed from the outside.

    If Bush had recognized those lessons, he would have recognized how stupid was the idea of invading Iraq.


    Just say no to McCain 2008; he abandoned principle when he caved on habeus corpus
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by berberry, posted 11-20-2006 9:38 PM berberry has not yet responded

  • Silent H
    Member (Idle past 3984 days)
    Posts: 7405
    From: satellite of love
    Joined: 12-11-2002


    Message 3 of 4 (365196)
    11-21-2006 5:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by berberry
    11-20-2006 9:38 PM


    Hey man, I already have a thread on this! Grumble grumble grumble.

    I'll point out that Kissinger's statement isn't exactly that we can never win. He said that we cannot win according to the criteria that Bush and Co had set out. Further, even if we cannot win, there are many ways of losing and its wiser not to end up with the worst losing scenario. He feels, and I happen to agree, simply pulling troops at this stage will be one of the worst decisions we can make.

    That we should never have gone in does not mean that we should pull troops now. That things are falling apart does not mean we should pull troops out now. Until they have no chance of accomplishing ANYTHING there, they should stay. There is thankfully still a chance, even if it is diminishing because Bush and Co still have their heads up their asses.

    Hopefully Gates and the new Iraq Study group will have something constructive to say that Bush will listen to.


    holmes
    "What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by berberry, posted 11-20-2006 9:38 PM berberry has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 4 by jar, posted 11-21-2006 5:30 PM Silent H has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30981
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 4.8


    Message 4 of 4 (365199)
    11-21-2006 5:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 3 by Silent H
    11-21-2006 5:15 PM


    Duplicate thread.
    Closing this one down. See message above.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by Silent H, posted 11-21-2006 5:15 PM Silent H has not yet responded

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