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Author Topic:   Haggard thread #2
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 1 of 168 (362344)
11-07-2006 3:27 AM


The first thread about Haggard went to so many directions that the original topic was lost in the mist of confusions, and I was partly responsible. Hopefully, the sequel will be a little better.
From the previous thread...
Haggard Letter writes: writes:
Ted Haggard’s letter to his congregation, in its entirety, dated Nov. 5, 2006
My Dear New Life Church Family,
I am so sorry. I am sorry for the disappointment, the betrayal, and the hurt. I am sorry for the horrible example I have set for you.
I have an overwhelming, all-consuming sadness in my heart for the pain that you and I and my family have experienced over the past few days. I am so sorry for the circumstances that have caused shame and embarrassment to all of you.
I asked that this note be read to you this morning so I could clarify my heart’s condition to you. The last four days have been so difficult for me, my family and all of you, and I have further confused the situation with some of the things I’ve said during interviews with reporters who would catch me coming or going from my home. But I alone am responsible for the confusion caused by my inconsistent statements. The fact is, I am guilty of sexual immorality, and I take responsibility for the entire problem.
I am a deceiver and a liar. There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it all of my adult life. For extended periods of time, I would enjoy victory and rejoice in freedom. Then, from time to time, the dirt that I thought was gone would resurface, and I would find myself thinking thoughts and experiencing desires that were contrary to everything I believe and teach.
Through the years, I’ve sought assistance in a variety of ways, with none of them proving to be effective in me. Then, because of pride, I began deceiving those I love the most because I didn’t want to hurt or disappoint them.
The public person I was wasn’t a lie; it was just incomplete. When I stopped communicating about my problems, the darkness increased and finally dominated me. As a result, I did things that were contrary to everything I believe.
The accusations that have been leveled against me are not all true, but enough of them are true that I have been appropriately and lovingly removed from ministry. Our church’s overseers have required me to submit to the oversight of Dr. James Dobson, Pastor Jack Hayford, and Pastor Tommy Barnett. Those men will perform a thorough analysis of my mental, spiritual, emotional, and physical life. They will guide me through a program with the goal of healing and restoration for my life, my marriage, and my family.
I created this entire situation. The things I did opened the door for additional allegations. But I am responsible; I alone need to be disciplined and corrected. An example must be set.
It is important that you know how much I love and appreciate my wife, Gayle. What I did should never reflect in a negative way on her relationship with me. She has been and continues to be incredible. The problem was not with her, my children, or any of you. It was created 100% by me.
I have been permanently removed from the office of Senior Pastor of New Life Church. Until a new senior pastor is chosen, our Associate Senior Pastor, Ross Parsley, will assume all of the responsibilities of the office. On the day he accepted this new role, he and his wife, Aimee, had a new baby boy. A new life in the midst of this circumstance - I consider that confluence of events to be prophetic. Please commit to join with Pastor Ross and the others in the church leadership to make their service to you easy and without burden. They are fine leaders. You are blessed.
I appreciate your loving and forgiving nature, and I humbly ask you to do a few things:
1. Please stay faithful to God through service and giving.
2. Please forgive me. I am so embarrassed and ashamed. I caused this and I have no excuse. I am a sinner. I have fallen. I desperately need to be forgiven and healed.
3. Please forgive my accuser. He is revealing the deception and sensuality that was in my life. Those sins, and others, need to be dealt with harshly. So, forgive him and actually, thank God for him. I am trusting that his actions will make me, my wife and family, and ultimately all of you, stronger. He didn’t violate you; I did.
4. Please stay faithful to each other. Perform your functions well. Encourage each other and rejoice in God’s faithfulness. Our church body is a beautiful body, and like every family, our strength is tested and proven in the midst of adversity. Because of the negative publicity I’ve created with my foolishness, we can now demonstrate to the world how our sick and wounded can be healed, and how even disappointed and betrayed church bodies can prosper and rejoice.
Gayle and I need to be gone for a while. We will never return to a leadership role at New Life Church. In our hearts, we will always be members of this body. We love you as our family. I know this situation will put you to the test. I’m sorry I’ve created the test, but please rise to this challenge and demonstrate the incredible grace that is available to all of us.
Ted Haggard
I'm a little confused about something and I hope someone might be able to clarify it for me.
Is Haggard apologizing for his infidelity or for his gayness? Is the dark side that he talked about his urge to commit infidelity or his homosexuality?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 11-07-2006 6:30 AM Taz has replied
 Message 3 by nwr, posted 11-07-2006 9:16 AM Taz has not replied
 Message 4 by Chiroptera, posted 11-07-2006 9:25 AM Taz has replied
 Message 58 by riVeRraT, posted 11-20-2006 10:10 AM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 7 of 168 (362425)
11-07-2006 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Chiroptera
11-07-2006 9:25 AM


chiroptera writes:
Is there something in particular you would like to see him say?
Not really. While I fully understand that he doesn't have to address the issue anymore than he already has because it's really none of our bussiness, I am just curious where this incident might lead. Will people blame infidelity or will people blame homosexuality?
On a different note, I just realized that this latest Haggard thing might give a very good example to many that homosexuality can't be cured by bible camp, christian indoctrination, or any other method because it's not a disease or will to sin.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 11-07-2006 12:46 PM Taz has replied
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 11-08-2006 9:01 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 9 of 168 (362429)
11-07-2006 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
11-07-2006 6:30 AM


Re: The Dark Side Of Denial
Phat writes:
Do you think that he should stay with the fundamentalist conservatives, gasby?
Personally, I don't know what to think.
I think that God could use him to heal the rift between evangelicals and homosexual activists.
Well...
Which direction, specifically, do you want this Haggard topic to go? What issue do you want to focus on, gasby?
Well, I was just curious about other people's interpretations of his apology, considering the fact that it's so general and completely absent of details. It's certainly an apology that leaves people wondering. While I'd like it to be a question of infidelity, I really do somewhat see people (fundies) blaming this on homosexuality.
The way I see it, this could lead to 2 reactions among the fundies: (1) it looks like homosexuality couldn't be cured and (2) homosexuality is sinful and destroys marriage.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 11 of 168 (362434)
11-07-2006 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
11-07-2006 12:46 PM


That I haven't heard yet.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 14 of 168 (362444)
11-07-2006 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Chiroptera
11-07-2006 1:35 PM


I don't get it. I did a search for Gayle Haggard and she looks fine to me.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 17 of 168 (362468)
11-07-2006 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Chiroptera
11-07-2006 2:08 PM


Still, his comments made me expect Gayle to be some kind of blob monster... sorry...

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 19 of 168 (362476)
11-07-2006 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Chiroptera
11-07-2006 5:19 PM


Chiroptera writes:
Maybe he's thinking of his own wife?
I can't believe I didn't think of that.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 28 of 168 (362636)
11-08-2006 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
11-08-2006 9:01 AM


Re: The Latest
Other observers parsing Haggard's two-page apology and confession that was read Sunday at New Life Church in Colorado Springs say they can't tell what "darkness" he is struggling with - marital infidelity or same-sex attraction.
So, I'm not the only one who couldn't tell.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 42 of 168 (364744)
11-19-2006 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Silent H
11-19-2006 8:09 AM


Re: stupid or less than stupid? (neither?)
holmes writes:
Have gay organizations tried to reach out to Haggard to see if he can come to grips with his homosexuality from a different perspective.
This is a sensitive situation. Any outreach from the gay community would definitely be viewed as invasive and further proof of the so-called homosexual agenda.
It might be interesting if he was able to switch sides and then perhaps help other evangelists look at it differently (especially all the OTHER closet cases).
Honestly, what are the chances of that happening?
I know what you're trying to say. When I was only a few years younger, I used to condemn gays and all other sinfuls. I have a friend who in high school was bullied by a macho biggot who kept saying "I hate you cuz you're a fag". The biggot now wears pink clothings and is as effeminate gay as one can be. He even apologized to my friend a couple of times. Both my friend and I are now very gay friendly.
However, I simply don't see people like Haggard switching sides. He might come out and say "I'm gay" but he'll just become another self-hating gay person out there.
Whatever Haggard turns out to be, he will not help our cause at all. This Haggard event is at best a temporary comedy to relieve stress, nothing more.
Added by edit.
Thus homosexuality is not, and never has been, the sole focus of their wrath... even if you may feel like that since that is where they hit you.
While I agree with you that fundies have been having a campaign against sex for as long as anyone can remember, the current apparent injustice is undoubtedly one committed against gay people. Besides, having grown up in a fundy environment and having spent most of my life being a fundy biggot, I must admit that some of it still exists in me. In other words, I'm not too fond of sex, although I let you (or anyone else) do whatever you want.
Edited by gasby, : No reason given.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 43 of 168 (364749)
11-19-2006 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
11-19-2006 10:38 AM


Re: The Latest
Another example of why according to the fundy standards I am morally superior to a lot of the actual fundies out there. I don't have any porn on my computer. I don't watch porn. I don't get off when I see porn. Heck, I don't even like porn. I personally think it's derogatory to human dignity. The difference between me and the fundies is I let people have it because it's only my personal opinion and I don't require that my personal opinion be made into the law.
But yes, that is very funny!

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 44 of 168 (364761)
11-19-2006 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Hyroglyphx
11-19-2006 1:02 PM


Re: the condesending nature of christian "concern"
nemesis writes:
Why don't you go on believing your beliefs and I'll go about believing in mine? This is the intolerant face of 'tolerance' Berb. So if you want me to remove the speck of sawdust out of my eye, take the plank out off yours first so that you can see clearly.
People like me might believe you when you say this if you people would leave gay people well alone... but obviously you haven't left them alone and there's no indication that you'll be leaving them alone in the near future.
I just don't believe that you will find it on your current path.
I always love self-fulfilling prophecies. I don't believe you're going to find happiness down the path you are taking, but hey, I'm going to push and vote for legislations that will make sure you won't find happiness down your path.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 51 of 168 (364810)
11-20-2006 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Hyroglyphx
11-19-2006 5:18 PM


Re: the condesending nature of christian "concern"
Sorry, that's probably one of the most biggoted posts I've ever seen. My mistake for bringing up the issue.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 86 of 168 (365060)
11-21-2006 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by berberry
11-20-2006 8:17 PM


Re: the condesending nature of christian "concern"
I, too, feel as strongly toward NJ about his attitude, which is why I decided to stop conversing with him before I lose control.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 130 of 168 (365492)
11-22-2006 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by jar
11-22-2006 2:18 PM


Re: the condesending nature of christian "concern"
jar writes:
I cannot even fathom how you can equate a consensual act between two people that does not in any way violate the rights or even lives of anyone else with having sex with someone else's wife.
Remember that NJ equates gays with dogs and children, neither of which can legally give consent. In his latest post, he even went as far as bringing in the Nambla argument. In NJ's universe, 2 gay men who are both above the age of 18 are no different than children or dogs. Explains why he thinks 2 men both above the age of 18 consenting to sex acts between them is equal to a relationship between a man above the age of 18 and a 5 year old.
For a little while, I really thought he wasn't equating gay people to children and dogs because of his later posts... but his most recent posts convinced me. I simply don't understand why Berb is suspended for disrespecting another member while NJ can get away with calling other adults children and dogs again and again.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 136 of 168 (365517)
11-22-2006 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Silent H
11-22-2006 7:24 PM


Re: the condesending nature of christian "concern"
holmes writes:
Second consent is a bs smokescreen to the topic.
Please explain more. Are you saying that there is no difference between 2 adults of legal age having sex and an adult and an underage having sex?
He appropriately brought in NAMBLA against a position that another poster took.
No, he didn't. The "other" poster was talking about 2 consenting adults giving each other consent to have sex. There was no reason for him to bring in nambla other than to argue against people's right to give consent.
That's called a good debate technique.
It's not a good debate technique. It's poisoning the well by introducing a subtopic that has nothing to do with the conversation. I don't know what he hopes to accomplish, but sex between an adult and a child is called statuary rape. There was no reason to bring it up when you're talking about 2 adults of legal age other than to imply that gay people haven't the same consenting rights as the rest of us.
Holmes, this isn't some kind of philosophical la-la land. I've read enough of your posts to know your position on the underage and sex. This has nothing to do with it.

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