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Author Topic:   Childhood Vaccinations – Necessary or Overkill?
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 46 of 327 (365035)
11-20-2006 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
11-20-2006 8:41 PM


Re: tentative devil's advocate
Perhaps we could replicate the successes of Mary Mallon and re-establish place like Carville, Louisiana.
For those who missed the allusion, here are a couple of links:
Mary Mallon - Wikipedia
Leper colony - Wikipedia

Just say no to McCain 2008; he abandoned principle when he caved on habeus corpus

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 47 of 327 (365042)
11-20-2006 9:53 PM


Hmmm. Vaccinations....
Anecdote time:
My mother died of polio in 1952 - two years before Salk's vaccine came out. My grandmother (other side of the family) died of typhoid in 1923 - before an effective vaccine. Both were in their thirties. Those didn't have to happen.
I'm in North Carolina on vacation this week. The state has some outbreaks of whooping cough among schoolkids - one of the schools about half a mile from my son's house. My bet is that unimmunized kids are the ones suffering - the outbreak further east is at a Mennonite school, and I'll bet they are more antivaccine that the public at large.
I had measles at age 12 or so - before vaccine - and I remember it 45 years later as the sickest, most miserable two weeks of my life.
I vaccinated my kids.

nyenye
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 327 (365046)
11-20-2006 10:28 PM


My friends kid has never had her vaccinations, and she is one of the smartest healthiest children I've ever met! I don't know, I think some types of down syndrome and mental problems come from shots

Replies to this message:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 49 of 327 (365048)
11-20-2006 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by nyenye
11-20-2006 10:28 PM


I think some types of down syndrome and mental problems come from shots
No, Down's syndrome is genetic.

Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 50 of 327 (365086)
11-21-2006 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by nwr
11-20-2006 8:30 PM


Re: tentative devil's advocate
Every unvaccinated child is a potential carrier of measles. How often will you test them?
Now now now, let's not get silly. I meant reasonably potentially a current carrier, not theoretically could be simply because they haven't been vaccinated. The comment above seems much like looking at homosexuals as potential HIV carriers.
By the time a child has symptoms of measles, he/she has already spread the disease to quite a few others.
Yep. I am freely admitting that without vaccination outbreaks can happen more frequently and they will spread to a number of people before being "rounded up" via quarantine as well as vaccination for those in the "path" of the disease at that time (rather than the theoretical prophylactic method we use today).
Quarantine won't work for fast spreading diseases like chicken pox and measles, unless you also do a preventative quarantine of all of the likely contacts.
Okay, I actually understood that. Combined with tests of such "likely" contacts quarantine does not have to be as long term for the nonexposed as for those who are found to have been exposed.
What is the problem with this method?
Still outstanding is a request for rates of contraction v effects of vaccination from "your" side. And perhaps some evidence that would suggest improved medical systems (such as I have suggested) would not lower contraction rates even more.

holmes
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by nwr, posted 11-20-2006 8:30 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by nwr, posted 11-21-2006 8:11 AM Silent H has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 51 of 327 (365095)
11-21-2006 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Buzsaw
11-20-2006 7:36 PM


Re: autism-sorry, long
Buz, your cut n pastes contain falsehoods and inaccuracies. In addition, Pringle, the author of the first one is a journalist with no training, AFAICT, in medicine or science.
quote:
Although government “experts” continue to maintain there is no link between autism and vaccines, they offer no alternative theory for the skyrocketing number of cases.
Go to this link to read a well-referenced, science-based article about autism. It contains up to date information on ongoing autism research and links to even more detailed info.
quote:
Because the onset of autism usually begins during the period when children are receiving many vaccines, most parents are convinced that vaccines trigger the disorder. Thousands of parents have filed lawsuits in the Court of Federal Claims alleging that thimerosal used in vaccines until 2002 is the cause of autism and a host of other neurological disorders.
I have sympathy for those parents, but the research simply does not show a causal link.
link
Because manufacturers stopped using thimerosal in children’s vaccines in 2000, few children now under age four have ever received a thimerosal-containing vaccine. Even those born to Rh-negative mothers (who received at least one dose of thimerosal-containing RhoGam during pregnancy) have gotten far less thimerosal than older children. If thimerosal were a major cause of autism, we should see a drop in autism incidence, which has yet to materialize.
Denmark mandated removal of thimerosal from vaccines in 1992. Even allowing for continued use of thimerosal-containing stocks of vaccine, Danish children were thimerosal-free by 1995. Autism prevalence in Denmark has risen in exactly the same fashion as in the United States and the United Kingdom.
So, do you concede that thimerosal is not likely a cause of autism, given the reality of the numbers, buz?
quote:
I've been into wholistic prevention and care of personal health for a long time. Over the decades naturopathy has advanced in America from alleged quakery to respectability to the point that many physicians are implementing it in their practice. Others have left conventional medicine to devote their whole effort on prevention and wholistic whole body healing including diet, herbs, vitamines, exercise et al with wonderful track records. The best is that the side effects are most always all good.
Wonderful track records?
Care to show any documentation to back that up?
And how do you feel about the fact that most herbs and other products sold as "natural" cures are completely untested for either safety of efficacy? It is also true that we have little to no knowledge of how any of these substances act in combination with other drugs, herbal or otherwise, or foods? We don't know if certain ethnicities should avoud certain substances, we don't know if there are gender differences in effect, we don't know if some are safe for children or pregnant women, etc. etc.
This is because the "nutritional supplement" industry, an extremely profitable multi-billion dollar industry, is not required to show that it's products are safe or effective, or even of consistent potentcy.
Many herbs are powerful drugs, buz, and most people taking and prescribing them are fooling themselves if they think that they are safer than synthetic drugs.
link
When potent natural substances are discovered, drug companies try to isolate and synthesize the active chemical in order to provide a reliable supply. They also attempt to make derivatives that are more potent, more predictable, and have fewer side effects. In the case of digitalis, derivatives provide a spectrum of speed and duration of action. Digitalis leaf is almost never used today because its effects are less predictable. Many herbs contain hundreds or even thousands of chemicals that have not been completely cataloged. Some of these chemicals may turn out to be useful as therapeutic agents, but others could well prove toxic.
In the United States, herbs intended for preventive or therapeutic use would be regulated as drugs under federal laws. To evade the law, these products are marketed as "foods" or "dietary supplements" without health claims on their labels. Since herbs are not regulated as drugs, no legal standards exist for their processing, harvesting, or packaging. In many cases, particularly for products with expensive raw ingredients, contents and potency are not accurately disclosed on the label. Many products marked as herbs contain no useful ingredients, and some even lack the principal ingredient for which people buy them. Surveys have found have found that the ingredients and doses of several products varied considerably from brand to brand.
To make a rational decision about an herbal product, it would be necessary to know what it contains, whether it is safe, and whether it has been demonstrated to be as good or better than pharmaceutical products available for the same purpose. For most herbal ingredients this information is incomplete or unavailable. Even worse, most published information about herbs is unreliable. The late Varro E. Tyler, Ph.D., former dean of the Purdue University School of Pharmacy and a leading authority on pharmacognosy (the science of medicines from natural sources), observed:
More misinformation about the safety and efficacy of herbs is reaching the public currently than at any previous time, including the turn-of-the-century heyday of patent medicines. The literature promoting herbs includes pamphlets, magazine articles, and books ranging in quality from cheaply printed flyers to elaborately produced studies in fine bindings with attractive illustrations. Practically all of these writings recommend large numbers of herbs for treatment based on hearsay, folklore, and tradition. The only criterion that seems to be avoided in these publications is scientific evidence. Some writings are so comprehensive and indiscriminate that they seem to recommend everything for anything. Even deadly poisonous herbs are sometimes touted as remedies, based on some outdated report or a misunderstanding of the facts. Particularly insidious is the myth that there is something almost magical about herbal drugs that prevents them, in their natural state, from harming people [8].
A study published in 2002 found that many sites located by searching for "herbs" and "cancer cure" contained illegal claims. [9] Dr. Stephen Barrett advises consumers to ignore advice from anyone who has a financial interest in the sale of dietary supplements, herbs, or homeopathic products.
Researchers from Harvard have evaluated claims made on 443 Web sites located by searching for information about eight widely used herbal supplements (ginkgo biloba, St John's wort, echinacea, ginseng, garlic, saw palmetto, kava kava, and valerian root). [10]. The researchers concluded:
Among 443 sites, 338 (76%) were retail sites either selling product or directly linked to a vendor.
273 (81%) of the 338 retail Web sites made 1 or more health claims, with 149 (55%) claiming to treat, prevent, diagnose, or cure specific diseases.
More than half (153/292; 52%) of sites with a health claim omitted the legally required standard federal disclaimer.
Nonretail sites were more likely than retail sites to include literature references, but only 52 (12%) of the 443 Web sites provided referenced information without a link to a distributor or vendor.
Consumers may be misled by vendors' claims that herbal products can treat, prevent, diagnose, or cure specific diseases, despite regulations prohibiting such statements. Physicians should be aware of this widespread and easily accessible information.
More effective regulation is required to put this class of therapeutics on the same evidence-based footing as other medicinal products.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
Edited by schrafinator, : fixed quote boxes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Buzsaw, posted 11-20-2006 7:36 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Jazzns, posted 11-21-2006 11:29 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 52 of 327 (365096)
11-21-2006 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Buzsaw
11-20-2006 7:48 PM


Re: tentative devil's advocate
Buz, how many people in the world die from prescription drugs compared to the number of people who die from not having access to them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 11-20-2006 7:48 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Buzsaw, posted 11-24-2006 7:16 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 53 of 327 (365097)
11-21-2006 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Buzsaw
11-20-2006 8:00 PM


quote:
I soon recovered consiousness but was sickish wheasy for most of the day. I was quite a small child. This was not reported to no health officials that I know of and nothing was done since I soon recovered. Since it was not reported, likely many other similar incidents like this were also likely left unreported across the nation.
Buz, your reaction was likely to have been your immune system ramping up. It takes more out of some people than others, but it just meant that your body was reacting properly to the vaccine and was industriously making antibodies against the pathogen.
Being a bit weak for a day sure beats getting smallpox, don't you think?
(By the way, there's no herbal cure or preventative for smallpox)

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 54 of 327 (365098)
11-21-2006 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by nyenye
11-20-2006 10:28 PM


quote:
I think some types of down syndrome and mental problems come from shots
Why do you think that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by nyenye, posted 11-20-2006 10:28 PM nyenye has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 55 of 327 (365102)
11-21-2006 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Silent H
11-21-2006 6:02 AM


Re: tentative devil's advocate
Combined with tests of such "likely" contacts quarantine does not have to be as long term for the nonexposed as for those who are found to have been exposed.
I don't know if there are quick tests for measles. If a test takes a couple of days, that would be too slow.
Suppose we instituted a regime of testing and quarantine such as you suggest. But let's assume that those with documented vaccination certificates are exempt from the testing and quarantine. I expect the result would be that there would be less controversy over vaccination. People would happily have their children vaccinated to avoid the more intrusive testing and potential quarantine.

Just say no to McCain 2008; he abandoned principle when he caved on habeus corpus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Silent H, posted 11-21-2006 6:02 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Silent H, posted 11-21-2006 8:33 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 56 of 327 (365107)
11-21-2006 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by nwr
11-21-2006 8:11 AM


Re: tentative devil's advocate
I expect the result would be that there would be less controversy over vaccination. People would happily have their children vaccinated to avoid the more intrusive testing and potential quarantine.
Well I'm for better quarantine procedures and I am for vaccination, so I'm not sure that quarantine itself will lead to what you suggest. Also, my guess is people against vaccination are willing to go for other options as long as it means no vaccination.
But I do agree that many will start falling out of the nonvaccination camp when they realize they do not have too great a personal reason NOT to do it, and that there will be consequences for not doing so.

holmes
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 57 of 327 (365113)
11-21-2006 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Wounded King
11-20-2006 6:05 PM


Re: Vaccination Apologetics
quote:
I'm not sure that people pointing out the hypocrisy of calling for scientific or tangible evidence and then providing absolutely no such standard in your own initial critique should really be considered apologetics. As yet you haven't presented any science to debate just a scattershot of claims backed up by at best secondary sources.
I clarified that I'm an average person with a layman's knowledge of science and medicine, and I said these are things that can make me question the system. I didn't say they were science. They do have excerpts from MDs who presumably use science. I did not want faith or value issues. The point being, I can question the system, without being a creationist supposedly opposed to biology.
So telling me you don't like the web site doesn't squelch the questions they bring up. We're all working with second hand information, unless someone here has actually done the tests themselves.
quote:
There are issue in any developing technology including medical technology. We could all stop now and go back to the dark ages but why bother when the homeopaths have that covered.
I haven't implied such an extreme. Homeopathy is not something I have found any validity in so far. Not sure why everyone homed in on that definition.
Parents have brought up concerns about the vaccinations and possible problems. If the vaccines are essential to controlling the various diseases, then the problems need to be addressed. I don't feel that the medical world has given good answers to the concerns or done the research to find an alternative if they even want to.
I understand why the mumps strain was withdrawn. I wasn't addressing AM. The fact that a strain caused another medical problem, shows that it is not ridiculous to feel that some element of a vaccine could cause future problems for some children. Doesn't most research start with a question or problem to solve?
The idea of giving the vaccines individually might lessen possible reactions. Supposedly research has not been done in that area. Separate the Vaccines
There's also the issue of mercury (thimerosal) in the vaccines.
Only weeks after the IOM came out with their report in early 2004, stating that thimerosal is not connected in any way with autism,Columbia University researchers reported, “The mercury preservative used in some vaccines can cause behavioral abnormalities in newborn mice characteristic of autism, but only in mice with a specific genetic susceptibility."
So while millions of children have no problem with the mercury, there is evidence that some may be genetically susceptible. Research needs to be done to be able to determine how to spot that susceptibility.
While the strains themselves may not be the culprit the delivery system might be.
Supposedly there are physical differences in the brain when one is autistic from birth. If the brain stem is shorter in an autistic person, then it should be relatively easy to see if the children that parents claimed were normal before MMR have this characteristic. Even my limited knowledge would not think something introduced after birth would shorten the brain stem.
There should be options for parents concerned about the possiblity of chemically induced diseases, not just a mandate.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Wounded King, posted 11-20-2006 6:05 PM Wounded King has replied

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 58 of 327 (365130)
11-21-2006 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Buzsaw
11-20-2006 7:36 PM


Re: autism-sorry, long
The only reason to use thimerosal in vaccines was to protect them from contamination when one vial of vaccine was used to inject multiple patients. In the past, not using a preservative in multi-use vaccines caused lots of problems.
Now adays though all vaccines are single-use and are free of any preservatives including thimerosal. This is according to our pediatrician. I confirmed this with the manufacturers of the vaccines we gave our son.
While there may have been some concern over a decade ago about thimerosal in vaccines that is no longer the case and it has become safer to vaccinate your children than not.
After doing the research and looking into the situation at length when it was about my own son, I finally relegated the anti-vaccine campaign to the looney bin where it belongs. Even when thimerosal was in use, there is no epidimiological evidence to tie to to autism more than any other increase in environmental factors.
I know plenty of kids who were vaccinated during the time when thimerosal was used and none of them have any problems. In fact most of my cousins are honor students and doing quite well in school.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Buzsaw, posted 11-20-2006 7:36 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 59 of 327 (365133)
11-21-2006 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Buzsaw
11-20-2006 8:00 PM


Vaccines have side effects. What else would you expect?
Vaccines are not medicine remember. What you are doing is training your immune system by introducing weakened or dead versions of the viruses that normally cause the disease. IIRC vaccines can even cause a extremely mild case of the viruses they eventually provide immunity for.
All of that is MUCH better than getting the diseases themselves. Many of those diseases are dangerous and the risk you take when you get the vaccine is far less than the risk you take should you eventually become infected with one of those diseases.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Buzsaw, posted 11-20-2006 8:00 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 60 of 327 (365137)
11-21-2006 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by nator
11-21-2006 7:27 AM


Re: autism-sorry, long
While I 100% agree with your assessment of Buz's paranioid misinformation, I have to admit I am impressed with some of the positive effects you can get from some of the new-age, essential oil, herby, hippy stuff.
A friend of mine is very into all that stuff. For the things that seem innocent enough to try it is suprisingly 50/50 on the stuff that seems to have some benefit and ones that seems like it would only work on people who need to believe that it does.
All this is very anecdotal of course but I think that SOMETIMES we can be too critical of those kinds of things.
Pepperment oil is awesome as a decongestant.
Lavender oil great on for a number of uses plus the scent really seems to calm down my son.
Unfortunatly, I have also seen my friend suckered into some really obvious cons like magic flourescent lights that cure cancer and diabetes.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by nator, posted 11-21-2006 7:27 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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