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Author Topic:   Childhood Vaccinations – Necessary or Overkill?
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 91 of 327 (365514)
11-22-2006 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Hyroglyphx
11-22-2006 6:02 PM


Re: Great thread, very eloquent
Yes, but I'm saying that if a natural remedy exists, why take synthetic drugs that have many different side effects?
Aspirin is the synthetic alternative to salicylic acid - willow bark extract, if you wish. The latter is the one with all the side effects, like bleeding stomachs. That's why Herr Doktor Bayer spent so much time on aspirin.
Why do you think that a new prescription drug - any new prescription drug - takes years of investigation by the maker to discover side effects? How much of that testing does a "nutritional supplement" have to undergo? If you don't even look for it, the odds are good you might not find it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-22-2006 6:02 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 92 of 327 (365541)
11-23-2006 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Dr Adequate
11-22-2006 3:19 PM


Wasn't rankled to begin with. I told you it was the best laugh I'd had all day.
You're not the only person to ever jump to a conclusion. Your comment just sparked the topic, so it will come up now and again in this thread. Nothing personal.
There's always room for questions and concerns when it comes to individual well being whether we have a science degree or not. Sometimes people forget that.
My family gives me grief over our "natural style" all the time. Of course it does keep them from raiding our fridge.
Unfortunately for them, they are eating at my house this Thanksgiving (today).

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 93 of 327 (365542)
11-23-2006 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by nator
11-22-2006 7:30 PM


Proper Testing
quote:
The difference being that synthetic drugs are isolated, purified, consistently-potent, and regulated by law, and botanical drugs are not.
And a lot of people are trying to get that changed.
Chinese Medicine Gaining Respectability in West
Change takes time.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by nator, posted 11-22-2006 7:30 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 95 by nator, posted 11-23-2006 7:28 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 96 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-23-2006 10:39 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 97 by nator, posted 11-23-2006 1:06 PM purpledawn has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 94 of 327 (365543)
11-23-2006 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by purpledawn
11-23-2006 4:46 AM


Re: Proper Testing
Q: What do you call alternative medicine which has been tested and shown to be effective?
A: Medicine!
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by purpledawn, posted 11-23-2006 4:46 AM purpledawn has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 95 of 327 (365553)
11-23-2006 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by purpledawn
11-23-2006 4:46 AM


Re: Proper Testing
The difference being that synthetic drugs are isolated, purified, consistently-potent, and regulated by law, and botanical drugs are not.
quote:
And a lot of people are trying to get that changed.[
That is true.
You know who is most resistant to this sort of change in the botanical drug industry?
The manufacturers and sellers of botanical drugs, that's who.
They pay big bucks to several high-powered lobby groups that have thus far successfuly blocked any legislation that would require them to show that their drugs are safe and effective.
This would tend to indicate to me that they care much more about continuing to make fabulous profits than about the health and welfare of consumers.
Given this fierce resistance to having to demonstrate their products' efficacy and safety, and given their utter lack of any existing reguation, I wonder why consumers continue to trust these drugs at all, let alone think they are better or safer or have fewer side effects than synthetics?
It seems they have swallowed the marketing Kool-Aide.
They would rather believe than know.
Edited by schrafinator, : fixed spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by purpledawn, posted 11-23-2006 4:46 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by purpledawn, posted 11-24-2006 6:59 AM nator has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 96 of 327 (365577)
11-23-2006 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by purpledawn
11-23-2006 4:46 AM


Re: Proper Testing
The difference being that synthetic drugs are isolated, purified, consistently-potent, and regulated by law, and botanical drugs are not.
And a lot of people are trying to get that changed.
And when they are isolated, purified, consistently-potent, and regulated by law --- and have been shown to be safe and effective by the regulators --- then they'll be real medicine.
From that article:
quote:
Jian He Chen uses these substances to make up a remedy for hay fever in a Chinese medicine pharmacy at the Superior Trading Co. in San Francisco.
Red dates
Citrus peel
Poria cocos
Schizandra berries
Bitter almond
Honey-cured licorice root slices
Pinellia
Codonopsis
Atractylodes
Ephedra stems
EPHEDRA STEMS?!?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by purpledawn, posted 11-23-2006 4:46 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by purpledawn, posted 11-24-2006 9:11 AM Dr Adequate has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 97 of 327 (365602)
11-23-2006 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by purpledawn
11-23-2006 4:46 AM


Re: Proper Testing
quote:
Change takes time.
Well, no, it really doesn't have to take time at all in this case.
Congress could pass a law tomorrow that would require botanical drugs to be regulated just like all other drugs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by purpledawn, posted 11-23-2006 4:46 AM purpledawn has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 98 of 327 (365697)
11-24-2006 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by nator
11-23-2006 7:28 AM


Change Resistant
quote:
You know who is most resistant to this sort of change in the botanical drug industry?
Anyone who stands to make big money off of either industry. I could die from lack of surprise.
But we don't want congress to go the wrong direction. I want the freedom to choose.
Anything used incorrectly can cause harm, whether it's an herb or an over the counter drug.
quote:
Given this fierce resistance to having to demonstrate their products' efficacy and safety, and given their utter lack of any existing reguation, I wonder why consumers continue to trust these drugs at all, let alone think they are better or safer or have fewer side effects than synthetics?
There are FDA regulations :
Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act
If the manufacturer makes a claim of curing a disease then the supplement falls under the regulations for drugs. See this request from Gaia herbs. Gaia Herbs
Herbs in fresh form still fall under regulations regarding food.
If the herb is used correctly, what side effects have you heard of for any specific herb or supplement?
Personally, I'd prefer not to put something in my body that is made from something I wouldn't normally choose to ingest.
Synthetic Alcohol in Foods
Synthetic Iron Oxide
While the label may say synthetic, they don't say what it was derived from. Supplements have the same problem. Any time we have to deal with something that someone else has prepared we run the risk; but all people don't have the means to grow all their own nutritional or medicinal needs.
There may be times when a synthetic drug is necessary, but if there is a natural possibility; I want the right to choose what goes into my body.
People are allowed to smoke harmful cigarettes if they choose, even though they are warned of the possible harm.
Cigarettes used to be considered safe. In the mid 50's one doctor even prescribed smoking a cigarette a day to avoid nausea when sitting in a room where people smoked.
I want the right to choose my form of health maintenance, whether it is a combination of MD, ND, nutritionist, or sports therapist.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by nator, posted 11-23-2006 7:28 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-24-2006 7:48 AM purpledawn has replied
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 Message 103 by Chiroptera, posted 11-24-2006 9:56 AM purpledawn has replied
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 99 of 327 (365698)
11-24-2006 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by purpledawn
11-24-2006 6:59 AM


Re: Change Resistant
You know who is most resistant to this sort of change in the botanical drug industry?
Anyone who stands to make big money off of either industry. I could die from lack of surprise.
On the contrary. The pharmaceutical industry stands to make money out of having the quacks propoerly regulated, as they are. Why should they want the competition to be free of the regulations which they have to labor under.
If the manufacturer makes a claim of curing a disease then the supplement falls under the regulations for drugs.
Yeah, so they cheat.
Dr Rita Louise doesn't really claim that homeopathic medicine is intended for treatment "of any disease of any kind" : Homeopathic Medicine for Adults... acne, alergy, appetite control, arthritis, asthma... Disclaimer: I acknowledge that the teachings and methods of Rita Louise, Ph.D. are not intended for the diagnosis, treatment, care, alleviation, mitigation, prevention or care of any disease of any kind, in anyway... In addition, I hereby attest and affirm that I am here as a client, on this and any subsequent visits, solely on my behalf and not as an agent for federal, state or local agencies on a mission of entrapment or for any investigative purpose.
Dr J. D. Decupere, chiropractor, doesn't really claim to treat high blood pressure : After much investigation and analysis, Dr. Decuypere has found an answer. Advanced Pressure Control is a special product combining Chinese herbal components and all-natural ingredients, reported by hundreds of thousands of patients to lower blood pressure within one to seven days. "I have had positive results with every one of my patients suffering from high blood pressure, and the most exciting part is that there are no side effects." ... Disclaimer... These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.
Michael Biamonte doesn't really claim to treat candida : CLICK HERE TO CONTACT US ABOUT OUR CANDIDA TREATMENT PROGRAM... Medical Disclaimer... We make no attempts to cure any "condition." We make no claims or imply any claims that suggestions are given to cure any condition. We do not claim that any nutritional supplements such as vitamins, minerals, herbs or proteins will cure any condition, nor that its purpose is to cure any condition. Neither Michael Biamonte CCN nor his staff intends to practice medicine in any way... We do not prescribe, nor do we treat disease.
Scientologists don't really claim anything at all about their Purification treatment : Purification program can improve personality --- and IQ! Find out about the only effective program that eliminates the devastating effects of drugs and toxins... Medical Disclaimer: The Purification® program cannot be construed as a recommendation of medical treatment or medication. It is not professed to be physical or medical treatment nor is any such claim made. There are no medical recommendations or claims for the Purification program or for any of the vitamin or mineral regimens described in this book.... The author makes no warranties or representation as to the effectiveness of the Purification program.
Karen Ryan doesn't really claim to give medical advice : Turquoise is excellent for boosting the immune system. It is a stone which protects the whole body. If you suffer from internal disorders such as stomach flu or systemic immune problems, Turquoise can help alleviate the symptoms. If you have frequent head colds, viruses, lung congestion, etc., I suggest the Amethyst to help rebuild your immunity. Wear a pendant of either the Turquoise or Amethyst crystal about 1-1/2 inches over the Heart Chakra. Also, Purple or Green Fluorite is better for unblocking head or sinus or ear congestion. You should feel some improvements after a few days of wearing the crystals... DISCLAIMER: Any advice given here... should not be construed as medical advice.
Electroacupuncturists don't really claim to improve "any disease condition whatsoever" : Dr Voll's Electroacupuncture is based on Traditional Chinese Medicine, which has a history going back thousands of years and which uses acupuncture to detect the energetic disturbances which are regarded as being the root causes of the symptoms of disease. The originator of electroacupuncture, Dr Reinhold Voll, succeeded in the electronic location and rebalancing of acupuncture points. Disclaimer... Absolutely no claims are made that this will result in improvement in any disease condition whatsoever.
Reiki practitioners don't really claim to offer medical treatment : Reiki, meaning 'universal life energy' is a form of energy healing which is now increasingly recognized for its ability to heal on all levels (physical, mental, emotional and spiritual) and promote total holistic well-being. It energizes and heals the body... DISCLAIMER... teachers/practitioners do not diagnose medical conditions, nor do they perform medical treatment.
"Sound therapists" don't really claim that "sound therapy" works : When vibration is in balance the body is healthy. When a disease or dis-ease is present we can become unhealthy. It is possible to use sound to project the correct resonant frequency of that part of the body which is vibrating out of harmony back into the body, causing it to return to its natural frequency and return to a state of health... Disclaimer... None of the machines, devices or equipment are intended to diagnosis or treat any physical or mental/emotional disease or condition.
Ronnie Allen doesn't really claim that "gem elixirs" treat disease : I made a gem elixir with the following stones: Apricot aventurine: Treats disorders of the lungs and adrenal glands... Petrified wood: Treatment of atrophied portions of the body, paralysis... Sugilite: used in treatment of disease, asthma These gem elixirs do work! ... Disclaimer... Healing and medicine are two different things... No methods taught by Ronnie Allen are for the purpose of diagnosing, treating, alleviating, mitigating, curing, preventing, or caring for disease in any way whatsoever.
Radionics woos don't really claim that their product works : Radionics is a method of healing and diagnosing at a distance... Disclaimer... no claims to diagnose, treat or cure diseases are implied.
And then there's these people. I still can't figure out exactly what it is that they don't really claim to be able to do, but anyone who can describe themselves as "A Non-Traditional School of Ancient Learning" has won a little place in my heart.
---
You see the dodge? First they claim they can treat a condition, then they put in tiny print at the bottom of the website the statement that they don't claim to treat any condition.
This is because they are liars, swindlers, and crooks.
If the herb is used correctly, what side effects have you heard of for any specific herb or supplement?
By "correctly", you mean as prescribed by a herbalist?
I gave you a link to the FDA's report on ephedra, which the Chinese herbalist in your link is still flogging to cure hayfever.
You might also check out Black Cohosh (also known as Black Snake Root, Bugwort, Bugbane, Squawroot, Rattleweed, Rattle Root, and Cimicifuga). This causes cancer: a look round the Internet shows that herbalists are still selling it.
Personally, I'd prefer not to put something in my body that is made from something I wouldn't normally choose to ingest.
And when you take a herb, which contains thousands of chemicals, how do you check which of those chemicals you would "normally choose to ingest".
While the label may say synthetic, they don't say what it was derived from.
In the case of iron oxide, that would be iron and oxygen. I forget the chemical formula for alcohol.
There may be times when a synthetic drug is necessary, but if there is a natural possibility; I want the right to choose what goes into my body.
I prefer those substances which have been tested and shown to be safe and effective: but tastes differ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by purpledawn, posted 11-24-2006 6:59 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 100 of 327 (365699)
11-24-2006 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Dr Adequate
11-24-2006 7:48 AM


Re: Change Resistant
In the case of iron oxide, that would be iron and oxygen. I forget the chemical formula for alcohol.
Alcohol is a hydrocarbon. Its formula consists of Hydrogen and Oxygen. However, synthetic alcohol can be produced from using other organic materials such as petroleum. I believe they might use petroleum to derive synthetic ethanol.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-24-2006 7:48 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 101 of 327 (365704)
11-24-2006 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Dr Adequate
11-23-2006 10:39 AM


Ephedra
And your point is what concerning ephedra stems for hayfever?
Ephedrine Group Alkaloids - Prohibition
He's mixing up a remedy for hayfever, not putting it in a dietary supplement. (A dietary supplement is a product taken by mouth that contains a "dietary ingredient" intended to supplement the diet.)

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-23-2006 10:39 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 102 of 327 (365708)
11-24-2006 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by purpledawn
11-24-2006 6:59 AM


Re: Change Resistant
Synthetic Alcohol in Foods.....
Begging you pardon here, PD, but "synthetic ethanol" is very likely much purer than the moonshiner's version. Any fermentation-derived alcohol will, of necessity, have traces of stuff like acetaldehyde in it. A lot of stuff like that is standard yeast-poop byproducts. Distillation will get the majority of these contaminants out - but ethanol from natural gas won't even contain them in the first place! And for that matter, natural gas is more "natural" than the corn they grow in Iowa to make "natural" ethanol from - it's not the result of 8000 years of genetic manipulation and selection by humans.
AbE: Ephedra stems? Who sang "I'm down to seeds and stems again, too?"
Edited by Coragyps, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 327 (365710)
11-24-2006 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by purpledawn
11-24-2006 6:59 AM


Re: Change Resistant
quote:
I want the freedom to choose.
Hey, I want the freedom for you to choose, too.
If you want to take large doses of vitamin C because you think it prevents colds, I think you should be able to.
If you want to take St. John's Wort because it's supposed to prevent depression (or whatever it's supposed to do), then you should be able to.
If you want to smoke pot because you want to get high, then you should be able to.
If you want to take a massive dose of morphine because you're tired of this world and want to check out, then you should be able to do that, too.
The only thing I want is some sort of "truth in labelling laws" so that, whatever you might think these things do, you at least have access to information about what they actually do do (and what they don't do).

Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by purpledawn, posted 11-24-2006 6:59 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by purpledawn, posted 11-24-2006 11:23 AM Chiroptera has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 104 of 327 (365714)
11-24-2006 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by purpledawn
11-24-2006 9:11 AM


Re: Ephedra
And your point is what concerning ephedra stems for hayfever?
That ephedra is bad for you.
To quote from the link which you gave:
"As with a lot of other marketable stimulants, adverse side effects are not uncommon. The alkaloids of ma huang can cause rapid or irregular heartbeat, very similar to the effects of adrenaline. Blood pressure rises. Unfortunately, there have been reported cases of liver injury and hepatitis, and users experience aggressiveness, anxiety, and tremors. This leads to poor judgment, and thus potential injuries. Complications from these side effects can result in cerebral hemorrhage, cardiac arrest, and, of course, death. Prolonged use of the drug, which is not recommended, can be the cause of weakened adrenal glands, nervousness, and insomnia."
He's mixing up a remedy for hayfever, not putting it in a dietary supplement. (A dietary supplement is a product taken by mouth that contains a "dietary ingredient" intended to supplement the diet.)
I think you'll find that it's equally bad for you however it's marketed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by purpledawn, posted 11-24-2006 9:11 AM purpledawn has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 105 of 327 (365728)
11-24-2006 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Chiroptera
11-24-2006 9:56 AM


Re: Change Resistant
quote:
The only thing I want is some sort of "truth in labelling laws" so that, whatever you might think these things do, you at least have access to information about what they actually do do (and what they don't do).
There are FDA regulations :
Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994, Public Law 103-417, 103rd Congress which stated: There shall be established as an independent agency within the executive branch a commission to be known as the Commission on Dietary Supplement Labels (hereafter in this section referred to as the "Commission")..
The membership shall include: (See the link for actual members)
* (1) COMPOSITION. - The Commission shall be composed of 7 members who shall be appointed by the President.
* (2) EXPERTISE REQUIREMENT. - The members of the Commission shall consist of individuals with expertise and experience in dietary supplements and in the manufacture, regulation, distribution, and use of such supplements. At least three of the members of the Commission shall be qualified by scientific training and experience to evaluate the benefits to health of the use of dietary supplements and one of such three members shall have experience in pharmacognosy, medical botany, traditional herbal medicine, or other related sciences. Members and staff of the Commission shall be without bias on the issue of dietary supplements.
This commission transmitted its final report on November 24, 1997.
The Commission on Dietary Supplement Labels -- established by Congress in the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994 and appointed by President Clinton -- has transmitted its final report to the President, the Congress, and the Secretary of Health and Human Services. The seven-member Commission examined a number of issues associated with labeling of dietary supplements. The report completes the duties of the Commission as assigned in its charter of February 1996.
I can't list all their specifications here, but here is a link to the FDA's Dietary Supplement Proposal.
Is there a supplement that you feel is not follow the guidelines?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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