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Author Topic:   Childhood Vaccinations – Necessary or Overkill?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 121 of 327 (366017)
11-26-2006 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by nator
11-25-2006 4:43 PM


Re: Choices
quote:
That's true, but based upon what you have written in this thread, I honestly do not think that you truly understand the magnitude of the lack of information on these herbal drugs.
The information simply doesn't exist to know enough for anyone to make an informed decision about most of them.
Choose one and the problem I am supposedly going to use it for and I'll try tell you why I would or would not use it.
Just remember, I don't have any life threatening illness.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by nator, posted 11-25-2006 4:43 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by nator, posted 11-26-2006 7:31 AM purpledawn has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 122 of 327 (366027)
11-26-2006 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Buzsaw
11-25-2006 6:36 PM


Re: Side Effects.
So, are you saying that when penicillin and sulfa drugs were discovered, it was a bad thing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Buzsaw, posted 11-25-2006 6:36 PM Buzsaw has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 123 of 327 (366029)
11-26-2006 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by purpledawn
11-26-2006 5:56 AM


Re: Choices
Mangosteen.
For osteoarthritis.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by purpledawn, posted 11-26-2006 5:56 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by purpledawn, posted 11-26-2006 11:08 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 124 of 327 (366037)
11-26-2006 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Buzsaw
11-25-2006 6:36 PM


Re: Side Effects.
What I's also like is a response to these points that I raised in my last message.
quote:
There's a natural remedy for every thinkable disease and ailment, either efficient in prevention or treatment of disease.
That is demonstrably not true.
quote:
However with herbs, vitamins and minerals, the chance of serious problems from the nature products is very small.
Why do you think that, buz? What makes you think that the side effects for herbs are fewer or even not more numerous than those of synthetics?
Like another mentioned, the reason we use commercial aspirin now is because the willow bark extract that aspirin was originally made from used to make people's stomachs bleed quite frequently.
Commercial aspirin is, by law, consistent in purity and potentcy and it's side effects have been researched to death, while willow bark extract can cause terrible stomach pain and hemmorage.
In fact, the the herbal drugs you have taken are likely to have hundreds or thousands of chemical compounds that might be affecting your body in unknown ways, simply because the company who manufactures them has ever been made to indentify what is in the drugs and make sure there are no dangerous compounds in them.
Haven't you been reading anything I and others have written in this thread?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Buzsaw, posted 11-25-2006 6:36 PM Buzsaw has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 125 of 327 (366044)
11-26-2006 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Buzsaw
11-25-2006 6:36 PM


Re: Side Effects.
quote:
Herbs do not make money for the practitioners nor the pharmaceuticals.
Buz, how naive can you be?
Herbs make fabulous amounts of money for the herbalists and naturopaths, and for the manufacurers.
In fact, the profits enjoyed are huge considering that they do not have the considerable burden that the drug companies have of demonstrating that their products are effective and safe.
The largely unregulated herbal drug industry is a multi-billion dollar industry with little regulation nor oversight.
If you are going to look with a wary eye at the conventional medical and pharmeceutical industries than you should do exactly the same for the herbal drug industry, since the latter is just as money-driven as the former.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Buzsaw, posted 11-25-2006 6:36 PM Buzsaw has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 126 of 327 (366049)
11-26-2006 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by nator
11-26-2006 7:31 AM


Mangosteen
Never heard of mangosteen, but here goes.
Excerpt from: The New Complete Medical and Health Encyclopedia 1987, Edited by Richard J. Wagman, M.D., F.A.C.P, Assistant Clinical Professor of Medicine, Downstate Medical Center, NY, NY.
Osteoarthritis is usually mild, and it seldom cripples. pain is generally moderate. Unlike rheumatoid arthritis, which is inflammatory, spreads from joint to joint, and affests the whole body, osteoarthritis confines its attack locally to individual joints. Rarely is inflammation a problem.
Osteoarthritis is likely to develop in any joint that has been required to take a lot of punishment or abuse; the knee or hip joints of someone who is overweight; joints injred in an accident; joints injured or overused in sports; joints subjected to unusual stresses and strains in work or play; joints with hidden defects that were present at birth.
There is no specific cure for arthritis, but the pain and swelling can be controlled. In other than acute cases, common aspirin has proved the safest and most popular medication.
Adequate rest for both the body and the affected joint is a fundamental treatment. Heat, controlled exercise, hydrotherapy, and massage are all effective if done under a physician's supervision.
Excerpt form same book:
A somewhat simplified explanation of the cause of osteoarthritis is this: the joints between the bones of a young person are cushioned and lubricated by cartilage pads and smooth lining membranes; normal wear and tear on the joints during a lifetime of activity gradually erodes the protective layers between the bones.
According to your QuackWatch, Mangsteen is just a tropical fruit juice. There doesn't seem to be any danger in it, plus according to the medical world there is no cure for osteoarthritis. Just pain management through "aspirin" and exercise.
So given all that, if I had osteoarthritis and I drank mangosteen (and actually liked the taste) and it stopped the pain; I would continue to drink it.
But there has supposedly been a breakthrough concerning Pomegranate fruit extracts which might slow down the inevitable.
As far as safety, the juice still falls under the guidelines for safe foods. So it should be considered as safe as any other fruit juice I buy in the store.
Aspirin and other anti-inflammatory drugs can cause stomach problems.
So the fruit juice has a lower risk of causing another problem besides the one I already have.
Do you find a flaw in my reasoning?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by nator, posted 11-26-2006 7:31 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 11-26-2006 11:10 AM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 128 by nator, posted 11-26-2006 11:30 AM purpledawn has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 127 of 327 (366050)
11-26-2006 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by purpledawn
11-26-2006 11:08 AM


Re: Mangosteen
Mangosteen is another one of the sources for O.P.C. which are proven to help with many health problems.
There is also Grape Seed Extract
and Green Tea
and even Blueberries
In concentrated amounts, OPCs are at worst harmless and at best quite useful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by purpledawn, posted 11-26-2006 11:08 AM purpledawn has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 128 of 327 (366055)
11-26-2006 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by purpledawn
11-26-2006 11:08 AM


Re: Mangosteen
Quackwatch doesn't mention that the juice is used for arthritis, but said that the dried and powdered skin was the most commonly used version of mangosteen.
What if your naturopath prescribed powdered mangosteen skin?
Here are the flaws in your reasoning:
quote:
There doesn't seem to be any danger in it
We actually do not know if there is any danger in it or not, since it hasn't been tested. We also do not know if it is effective for osteoarthritis, interferes with any other drugs or foods, what the active ingredients are, or, if it is effective, what amounts of it should be ingested.
quote:
So given all that, if I had osteoarthritis and I drank mangosteen (and actually liked the taste) and it stopped the pain; I would continue to drink it.
Unless you were in a carefully controlled clinical experimental situation, you would have no way of knowing if the mangosteen was the reason that your pain stopped or was reduced, so it would be an error to say that it has any effect.
Pain is one of those things that is very subject to the placebo effect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by purpledawn, posted 11-26-2006 11:08 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by purpledawn, posted 11-26-2006 1:30 PM nator has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 129 of 327 (366080)
11-26-2006 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by nator
11-26-2006 11:30 AM


Re: Mangosteen
Then you should have been more specific as to what you were talking about. All you said was mangosteen. I found juice and gave you my thoughts on the juice. If you have links to the skin, then provide them and I'll look at it.
What I looked at was a fruit juice and it still has to fall under the FDA safety regulations for food. So as a food it is safe.
Do you feel cranberry juice is unsafe to drink or any other fruit juice?
quote:
Unless you were in a carefully controlled clinical experimental situation, you would have no way of knowing if the mangosteen was the reason that your pain stopped or was reduced, so it would be an error to say that it has any effect.
Lack of pain is lack of pain, whether the juice did something or I "imagined" it.
I feel there was enough information for me to make an informed decision concerning my "condition". If you prefer to wait for studies that would be your choice.
Again, given that it is a fruit juice covered by FDA food regulations and given that there is no cure only pain management, do you see a flaw in my conclusion concerning the mangosteen juice?
quote:
We also do not know if it ... interferes with any other drugs or foods, what the active ingredients are, or, if it is effective, what amounts of it should be ingested.
Do you know that about any other fruit juices you drink before you decide to drink them?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by nator, posted 11-26-2006 11:30 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Coragyps, posted 11-26-2006 1:51 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 133 by nator, posted 11-26-2006 9:15 PM purpledawn has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 130 of 327 (366084)
11-26-2006 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by purpledawn
11-26-2006 1:30 PM


Re: Mangosteen
Do you feel cranberry juice is unsafe to drink or any other fruit juice?
The juice of the opium poppy seed capsule - its fruit - isn't real safe in any significant quantity. Same with Jimsonweed, mistletoe, jasmine, nightshade, yew, elderberry.....
Just because it's a "natural" product doesn't mean it's good for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by purpledawn, posted 11-26-2006 1:30 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by purpledawn, posted 11-26-2006 4:48 PM Coragyps has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 131 of 327 (366111)
11-26-2006 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Coragyps
11-26-2006 1:51 PM


Re: Mangosteen
quote:
The juice of the opium poppy seed capsule - its fruit - isn't real safe in any significant quantity. Same with Jimsonweed, mistletoe, jasmine, nightshade, yew, elderberry.....
Just because it's a "natural" product doesn't mean it's good for you.
I've never claimed that anything natural is automatically good for you. I'm quite aware that there are poisonous plants and animals that aren't fit for consumption.
Are you saying that the FDA allows these juices to be manufactured and sold in the U.S. for general consumption?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Coragyps, posted 11-26-2006 1:51 PM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by nator, posted 11-26-2006 9:00 PM purpledawn has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 132 of 327 (366164)
11-26-2006 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by purpledawn
11-26-2006 4:48 PM


Re: Mangosteen
quote:
I've never claimed that anything natural is automatically good for you. I'm quite aware that there are poisonous plants and animals that aren't fit for consumption.
Are you saying that the FDA allows these juices to be manufactured and sold in the U.S. for general consumption?
The FDA "allowed" Ephedra to be manufactured and sold in the US and it killed people.
Thats because there are far more requirements for fruit juice manufacturers to show that their product is safe than there are for herbal drug manufacturers to do the same.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by purpledawn, posted 11-26-2006 4:48 PM purpledawn has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 133 of 327 (366167)
11-26-2006 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by purpledawn
11-26-2006 1:30 PM


Re: Mangosteen
quote:
Do you know that about any other fruit juices you drink before you decide to drink them?
If I was on any other medication, I would want to know that, yes.
One should not drink juices high in potassium, for example, if one is taking diuretics.
There are a whole host of known prescription drug and food interactions, many of which can be viewed here.
The reason we know about all of these interactions is because the companies that manufacture them found out about them during the clinical trials and tests that they are required to do before releasing them to the public.
How many food and herbal drug interactions do your naturopathic sources know about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by purpledawn, posted 11-26-2006 1:30 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Coragyps, posted 11-26-2006 9:31 PM nator has not replied
 Message 135 by purpledawn, posted 11-27-2006 6:19 AM nator has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 134 of 327 (366170)
11-26-2006 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by nator
11-26-2006 9:15 PM


Re: Mangosteen
If I was on any other medication, I would want to know that, yes.
Like, say, grapefruit juice interacting with a pretty wide range of prescription drugs: Ask IFAS: Page Not Found
That tells me that "all-natural, organic" grapefruit juice will also interact with quite a few other "all-natural organic" herbs and such. Some of those interactions will be unfavorable. And the folks peddling all that stuff haven't studied those possible interactions at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by nator, posted 11-26-2006 9:15 PM nator has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 135 of 327 (366208)
11-27-2006 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by nator
11-26-2006 9:15 PM


Re: Mangosteen
quote:
If I was on any other medication, I would want to know that, yes.
But our scenerio didn't include being on any other medications. Having osteoarthritis dosen't mean I have any other medical problems.
Anyone taking multiple medications, herbs, supplements, etc. should always do their homework. There is a book called: Vitamins, Herbs, Minerals, & Supplements; The Complete Guide by H. Winter Griffith, M.D. 1998. It includes known interactions, usage information, warnings, known effects, etc.
quote:
One should not drink juices high in potassium, for example, if one is taking diuretics.
But did the manufacturer of the fruit juice do that research or the diuretic manufacturer?
quote:
The reason we know about all of these interactions is because the companies that manufacture them found out about them during the clinical trials and tests that they are required to do before releasing them to the public.
You haven't shown me that a fruit juice manufacturer is required to do testing to show how his fruit juice may interact with various drugs.
BTW, Xango has been warned by the FDA about outrageous claims.
quote:
How many food and herbal drug interactions do your naturopathic sources know about?
That's like asking how many food and drug interactions does my doctor know about. It is usually the pharmacist that tells you about interactions, not the doctor.
quote:
The FDA "allowed" Ephedra to be manufactured and sold in the US and it killed people.
Are you saying that no drug or food additive that the FDA allowed on the market has ever killed or maimed people? They have never had to reverse their approval?
quote:
Thats because there are far more requirements for fruit juice manufacturers to show that their product is safe than there are for herbal drug manufacturers to do the same.
Please show me that more is required from a fruit juice manufacturer than an herbal drug manufacturer.
In Message 117 you claimed
That's true, but based upon what you have written in this thread, I honestly do not think that you truly understand the magnitude of the lack of information on these herbal drugs.
The information simply doesn't exist to know enough for anyone to make an informed decision about most of them.
In Message 121 I asked that you choose one and choose a health problem I would be using the remedy for and I would explain to you why I would or would not use it.
You chose Mangosteen, a fruit juice.
You still haven't shown a valid flaw in my reasoning in Message 126 concerning mangosteen and osteoarthritis.
Possible drug interaction isn't valid because another drug wasn't given in the scenerio and fruit juices list their contents just like any other food. Don't add to the scenerio.
For me the fruit juice, mangosteen, poses no risk. If it didn't work, it was a nice fruity drink.
Again, given what osteoarthritis is, that there is no cure, and pain management is the means available in dealing with it; do you find a valid flaw in my reasoning?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by nator, posted 11-26-2006 9:15 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by nator, posted 11-27-2006 10:15 AM purpledawn has replied

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