|
Author
|
Topic: Childhood Vaccinations – Necessary or Overkill?
|
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
|
Re: Mangosteen
quote:
Anyone taking multiple medications, herbs, supplements, etc. should always do their homework. There is a book called: Vitamins, Herbs, Minerals, & Supplements; The Complete Guide by H. Winter Griffith, M.D. 1998. It includes known interactions, usage information, warnings, known effects, etc.
How do the effects become "known"? In the case of medicinal herbs, it is certainly not by any investigation done by the companies who make them.
One should not drink juices high in potassium, for example, if one is taking diuretics. quote:
But did the manufacturer of the fruit juice do that research or the diuretic manufacturer?
Probably the diuretic maker. How many of your herbal medication's manufacturers have done such research?
[qs]The reason we know about all of these interactions is because the companies that manufacture them found out about them during the clinical trials and tests that they are required to do before releasing them to the public.[/quote] quote:
You haven't shown me that a fruit juice manufacturer is required to do testing to show how his fruit juice may interact with various drugs.
That's true, they do not probably have to do that. What about the Mangosteen skin?
quote:
BTW, Xango has been warned by the FDA about outrageous claims.
Yeah, it's too bad that the FDA has no power to do more than that.
How many food and herbal drug interactions do your naturopathic sources know about? quote:
That's like asking how many food and drug interactions does my doctor know about.
she probably knows quite a few, and specialists likely know even more.
quote:
It is usually the pharmacist that tells you about interactions, not the doctor.
Then maybe you need a different doctor? But anyway, since there is no "pharmacist" at the health food store or wherever you buy your hrebs, and since very few of the herbal drugs have been tested to know if they have any interactions, you are mostly shooting in the dark when you combine them. You can't make an informed decision when the information hasn't been gathered yet.
The FDA "allowed" Ephedra to be manufactured and sold in the US and it killed people. quote:
Are you saying that no drug or food additive that the FDA allowed on the market has ever killed or maimed people? They have never had to reverse their approval?
No, of course not. The point is, the FDA doesn't get to approve any herbal drugs, so it's a complete crap shoot to take them compared to the much more informed risk with prescription drugs. Policy Review | Fr die Gesellschaft von Vorteil
The U.S. Congress has virtually exempted herbal remedies from government oversight. When the Food and Drug Administration considered regulating these products in the early 1990s, manufacturers and health food stores orchestrated a massive lobbying campaign against stricter controls. The industry produced television commercials that depicted movie star Mel Gibson handcuffed by FDA agents for possessing vitamins. The result was the Dietary Supplement and Health Act of 1994. Pushed heavily by Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah, the home base of many supplements makers, and passed over the objections of the FDA, the law created a new product class, the dietary supplement, which was not subject to regulations applied to drugs. Now any substance that can be found in foods, regardless of amount or action and including chemicals that act as hormones or toxins, can be produced and sold without any premarket testing or approval. PD, I just want to know if you think this situation is acceptable.
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
Message 137 of 327 (366326)
11-27-2006 1:23 PM
|
Reply to: Message 136 by nator
11-27-2006 10:15 AM
|
|
Change Takes Time
As I've said before change takes time. It took time for the drug rules to get where they are today and it will take time for the herbal rules to get to a standard people can accept.
quote:
How do the effects become "known"? In the case of medicinal herbs, it is certainly not by any investigation done by the companies who make them.
You assume. Known Effects quote:
What about the Mangosteen skin?
You haven't provided a link for me to check.
quote:
Yeah, it's too bad that the FDA has no power to do more than that.
The introduction or delivery for introduction into interstate commerce of an unapproved new drug is prohibited under the FD&C Act [21 U.S.C. 331(d)] and may lead to enforcement action, including seizure and/or injunction.
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 136 by nator, posted 11-27-2006 10:15 AM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 138 by nator, posted 11-27-2006 1:34 PM | | purpledawn has not replied | | | Message 139 by nator, posted 11-27-2006 1:39 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
|
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
|
Re: Change Takes Time
quote:
unapproved new drug
Herbal drugs are classified as "nutritional supplements" precisely so they can get around all of the laws that regulate drugs.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 137 by purpledawn, posted 11-27-2006 1:23 PM | | purpledawn has not replied |
|
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
|
Re: Change Takes Time
quote:
As I've said before change takes time.
If the money is too good, change can be delayed indefinitely.
quote:
It took time for the drug rules to get where they are today and it will take time for the herbal rules to get to a standard people can accept.
That's crap, pd. Herbal drugs are drugs! There is no reason in the world that they aren't being regulated as drugs today other than the vigorous lobbying by the manufacturers and the health food stores. That law I mentioned in my last message could be repealed in a single vote, and in fact, never should have been instituted in the first place. I ask again; do you find this situation with the regulations to be acceptable? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
|
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
|
|
|
Message 140 of 327 (366333)
11-27-2006 1:43 PM
|
Reply to: Message 114 by Buzsaw
11-24-2006 11:16 PM
|
|
Re: tentative devil's advocate
Antibiotics are a danger to your immune system. Evidence?
Alternatively, why not use probiotics. Have you heard how these are doing so much for the enhancement of health via the wholistic route? No, do please show me some figures.
They are good bacteria you take to overwhelm the bad bacteria which cause disease et al. Echinacea, ascorbic acid, garlic (especially aged garlic), Zinc, magnesium, pleurisy root, cayenne, aloe vera, alfalfa and a host of other food suppliments can do safely what harmful antibiotics do to treat and prevent infections and diseases without the harmful side effects. With these the side effects are all good and most of these are foods which you cannot overdose on. I, my family and a host of other folks apprised on this stuff go year in and year out without the use of any antibiotics or immune shots of any kind. So do I. I attribute my survival to my possession of an immune system, rather than to paying out good money for a bunch of "supplement" quackery, "probiotics", and other such flummery. I do eat garlic, but not for my health. You may regard me as a control group.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 114 by Buzsaw, posted 11-24-2006 11:16 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
|
Buzsaw
Inactive Member
|
Re: tentative devil's advocate
Buz says: Antibiotics are a danger to your immune system.
Post the whole message from which you quotemined the out of context statement and you have a concise argument for the accuracy of the statement. If you disagree, it's up to you to refute the reasons given which you apparantly chose to ignore.
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 144 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2006 3:11 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 142 of 327 (366385)
11-27-2006 8:31 PM
|
Reply to: Message 139 by nator
11-27-2006 1:39 PM
|
|
Re: Change Takes Time
quote:
That law I mentioned in my last message could be repealed in a single vote, and in fact, never should have been instituted in the first place.
What has that got to do with change taking time. If one vote will do it then somebody has to change their mind and apparently hasn't yet.
quote:
I ask again; do you find this situation with the regulations to be acceptable?
No, there needs to be better regulations for supplements and medicinal herbs. I never said they were perfect. ABE: But I don't want to lose the right to choose them as my choice for health maintenance and healing. Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 139 by nator, posted 11-27-2006 1:39 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 145 by nator, posted 11-28-2006 3:12 PM | | purpledawn has not replied |
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
Antibiotics
Antibiotics Antibiotics increase the growth of the yeast Candida albicans in the gut, Noverr explains. It is a common side effect of antibiotic use and previous studies show that this change in the gut could increase allergies.
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 146 by nator, posted 11-28-2006 3:14 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.2
|
|
|
Message 144 of 327 (366431)
11-28-2006 3:11 AM
|
Reply to: Message 141 by Buzsaw
11-27-2006 8:09 PM
|
|
Re: tentative devil's advocate
quote:
Post the whole message from which you quotemined the out of context statement and you have a concise argument for the accuracy of the statement. If you disagree, it's up to you to refute the reasons given which you apparantly chose to ignore.
I've read the post in question Message 114 The claim is followed by the assertions that: 1) Antibiotics kill off "good" bacteria 2) They may promote yeast growth and have some other unspecified side-effects 3) Yeast growth may cause other unspecified problems That is it. There is no argument to support the assertion that antibiotics damage the immune system. So Dr. Adequate did not quote-mine, The quote was not taken out of context. There was no arguement for the accuracy of the statement. There were no reasons given TO be refuted. So all in all your post was untrue in every significant respect.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 141 by Buzsaw, posted 11-27-2006 8:09 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
|
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
|
Re: Change Takes Time
quote:
But I don't want to lose the right to choose them as my choice for health maintenance and healing.
We shouldn't be allowed to choose to buy or sell drugs that are untested for safety and efficacy. If you want to use a given herbal drug, even though after it has been thoroughly researched and it has been found to have no theraputic benefit (like Echenacia), then you can grow it yourself and use it to yor hearts content. But it should not be bought or sold. The ability to sell and buy snake oil is not in the public's interest. Sometimes, people need to be protected from those companies that will take advantage of their discontent with the limitations of science and conventional medicine. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 142 by purpledawn, posted 11-27-2006 8:31 PM | | purpledawn has not replied |
|
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
|
Re: Antibiotics
quote:
Antibiotics increase the growth of the yeast Candida albicans in the gut, Noverr explains. It is a common side effect of antibiotic use and previous studies show that this change in the gut could increase allergies.
How is this a danger to one's immune system?
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 147 of 327 (366573)
11-28-2006 6:00 PM
|
Reply to: Message 146 by nator
11-28-2006 3:14 PM
|
|
Re: Antibiotics
Antibiotics increase the growth of the yeast Candida albicans in the gut, Noverr explains. It is a common side effect of antibiotic use and previous studies show that this change in the gut could increase allergies. Your body's immune system is designed to attack harmful substances like bacteria and viruses. But with allergies, your body launches an assault on substances that are basically harmless -- such as pollen, mold, dust mites, pet saliva and dander, and even medications and insect sting venom. Sounds like the immune system is not working correctly, malfunctioning. It may still attack the harmful substances, but is also attacking harmless substances.
Candida can weaken the immune sytem.
Chronic and acute mobilization of immune defenses, induced by a variety of diseases and conditions, places undue stress on the immune system, weakening its capacity to deal effectively with infectious organisms and other immunological requirements elsewhere in the body. Such conditions include, but are not limited to, multiple sclerosis, fibromyalgia, autoimmune disorders in general, primary chronic polyarthritis, chronic candidiasis, cancer, neurodermatitis, ulcerative colitis, Crohn's disease, food and other allergies, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) and chemical sensitivities. It is known that antibiotics kill friendly bacteria as well as harmful.
Common Vaginal Infection: Anything that interferes with the immune system will make yeast thrive. Antibiotics, for example, kill not only the harmful bacteria but also the friendly bacteria that are always in the vagina, necessary to fend off infection. As the article from the medical news archive stated: Antibiotics increase the growth of the yeast Candida albicans in the gut. Candida is known to be a contributor to weakening the immune system. So is it really unfair to say that antibiotics are a danger to the immune system or must one say that antibiotics only contribute to weakening of the immune system?
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 146 by nator, posted 11-28-2006 3:14 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 148 by nator, posted 11-29-2006 4:37 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
|
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
|
Re: Antibiotics
quote:
Antibiotics increase the growth of the yeast Candida albicans in the gut, Noverr explains. It is a common side effect of antibiotic use and previous studies show that this change in the gut could increase allergies.
Well, the statement says that the studies show that Candida yeast in the gut could increase allergies, not that it does. That sounds to me like tenuous support of the claim at best.
quote:
Oral Candida or Thrush ...It often heralds a decrease in the strength of the immune system.
"Heralds" means that the appearance of Candida is a sign or symptom that the immune system is weakened, not that Candida actively weakens the immune system.
quote:
Candida can weaken the immune sytem.
Actually, the site states that chronic candidiasis weakens the immune system. An occasional imbalance of the gut bacteria as a result of antibiotics that results in a few days or weeks of increased candida in the gut is not at all the same as a chronic yeast infection. Most people who take antibiotics properly do not get candidiasis. So, I would conclude that the claim that antibiotics are a danger to the immune system is not terribly accurate. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 149 of 327 (366979)
11-29-2006 8:28 PM
|
Reply to: Message 148 by nator
11-29-2006 4:37 PM
|
|
Re: Antibiotics
quote:
So, I would conclude that the claim that antibiotics are a danger to the immune system is not terribly accurate.
And that is your choice. I conclude otherwise and choose to stay away from antibiotics as much as possible. My concerns are not unfounded or unreasonable.
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 148 by nator, posted 11-29-2006 4:37 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 150 by nator, posted 12-01-2006 4:49 PM | | purpledawn has replied | | | Message 154 by Meddle, posted 12-02-2006 7:54 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
|
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
|
Re: Antibiotics
quote:
And that is your choice. I conclude otherwise and choose to stay away from antibiotics as much as possible.
Actually, I stay away from antibiotics as much as possible because of concerns about creating antibiotic resistance. I also don't take any drug unless I really need it, and, of course, if it has been demonstrated to be safe and effective for what I'm taking it for.
quote:
My concerns are not unfounded or unreasonable.
Well, yeah, they are rather unfounded and unreasonable, for the reasons I mentioned. There isn't very solid evidence that antibiotics weaken the immune system, or that the occasional candida imbalance in the gut causes a weakening of the immune system. You can believe it on faith in your "Naturaopathic Holistic Balanced Healing for Women"- type books if you want to, of course, but such a belief is not based upon reason. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
|
™ Version 4.2