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Author Topic:   What is a soul?
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 191 (367222)
11-30-2006 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dogrelata
11-30-2006 2:15 PM


The soul undaunted
Given the nature of these forums, I guess it’s no surprise to see frequent references to the human soul. As someone who doesn’t have a spiritual bone in his body, it’s tough to get a real feel for what’s being discussed. Which is not a problem in the sense that my natural sceptic’s instincts tell me this is an area where reality might best be described as blurred. But it’s also one of the reasons for my fascination. What is it that draws people to their beliefs in this area?
Distrust and incredulity is, by far, the prevailing disposition of man. And so, he is always at ends with God. He has a disjointed relationship with the Father, insomuch, that man is the one seeks asylum, not God. He is the one who has set up partitions that might block out any semblance of the hallowed. When we get right down to it this is the crux of the matter. This is what separates mankind from the animal kingdom. Man is not a moral monkey; he is a moral being who constantly finds him self in this chasm between good and evil.
There is no materialistic or metaphysical force that can explain morality, or how it might somehow develop through elapsed time. Mankind is in enmity with God. Why? Well, interestingly enough, those who seem to hate God, in a roundabout way, tells me that everyone has a latent desire for Him. It seems that everyone, deep down, is just fine with an omni-benevolent Being. But, given the nature of this world and all it’s climactic chaos, mankind just cannot perceive that there can be an all-knowing, all-loving deity. It’s as if they are saying, “I want so badly to believe in this benevolence you speak of, but I am afraid to let down my guard. This is a world full of malevolence and hypocrisy. I might open myself up to disappointment. I have become accustomed with disbelief and it has actually served to benefit at times. If I let my guard down, I might be opening myself up to disappointment. What if God doesn’t meet my expectations? What if I don’t meet God’s expectations?”
You know what? That is the most honesty anyone could ever ask for. This question has been asked not only by the staunchest atheist, but also of the most God-fearing man. Do you not think that everyone that believes in God, and moreover, His benevolence has overlooked this? God knows that we are mortal and remembers that we are but dust. Perhaps there are times in all of our lives when we shake our fists at the sky, and ask God... “Where are you?! How could you let this happen?!” I think this is a question that has been asked by every human being that has ever graced the earth, even if on a subconscious level, including myself.
God has made provisions for man that he is given the choice to love or reject. This is truly a profound thing, because after all, what IS love without the choice to love or reject? It does not even exist, as they are analogous. God could have made us automatons that worship Him in vain, however, in His infinite knowledge, we are given the wonderful gift of choice. Love, requires faith. For instance, what does it take me to know that my wife loves me and not my insurance policy? What is the mechanism of my understanding in relation to this? How is it that I can every truly know if she loves me or not? Now, she may manifest her love outwardly to me through various forms of giving and sharing, but ultimately, it is up to me to believe, by faith, that she loves me. How could I ever really know what love even is, apart from faith? I could not, any other way; and neither could you. What then, makes this faith real?
To answer this question, we must first understand the ultimate reality of the self. Let me say, that God is immortal. That, which does not suffer from entropic forces is unchanged. That which is unchanged does not decay. And what does not decay is immortal. With this concept fresh in your mind, know that you too are immortal. Before you make the libelous statement of calling me insane, listen to what that great poet and apologist, C.S. Lewis once stated: “You don’t have a soul. You are a soul.” An interesting concept he posits. If what he says is true, then what makes you, you?
Is it the symmetry of your facial features that people recognize? If this constitutes the reality of the self, then what should we consider about the blind? Do you cease to exist if we cannot see you? Is it, perhaps, your scent being recognized by the receptors in what comprises our olfactory system that makes you real? Is it the way the way air reverberates off of your vocal cords that resonate in our ears to identify your voice inflections and intonations? What about the deaf? Do you cease to exist if we cannot hear you? If this is the case, then nothing was real to Helen Keller. Perhaps, it is your fingerprint design, in it’s unique pattern that make you who you are. Maybe, you are just a barcode or a Social Security number, shuffled along through the system. Maybe, in some grandiose conspiracy theory, Big Brother is the maker and keeper of your reality. And maybe you don’t exist at all!
In all seriousness, do the functions of the human body encapsulate who you are? I hope this is not the measure of your life. If it is, I would neglect to impute any value to your reality simply because you recognize the obvious. Your lack of astute observation merely recognizes a system of thought that does not transcend the physical. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out why this trite concept of the self is lacking depth and meaning. What saddens me most about this logic, or lack thereof, stems from my ability to sympathize with it. I remember quite well the hopelessness that manifests itself due to the separation from the Creator. So then, what shall we say equates to true life? What makes us who we are? Answer: The soul.
Many people do not believe in the soul because it is not tangible. It has no weight, no height, no depth-- no space, whatsoever, which is terribly difficult to conceptualize. However, given the instances I just provided, what more could we deduce about the self? Those that do believe in the soul often use the term loosely. They have no concept of the power that is the soul. That power surely emanates from somewhere. More importantly, what is it that grants us the soul? It is the very thing that granted us dominion over the animals. It is God. I guess the basic concept of the soul is elementary. Most assuredly, however, it proves elusive beyond our complete comprehension. Our mental capacity simply cannot account for it, in the same way that we mentally cannot comprehend the awesomeness of God.
Consider the soul, then, to be the very [b]”essence’[/i] of being. It IS the existence. Everything else is an illusory. And it is undoubtedly the single greatest possession to God. Because to give your soul to Him is to give all of you to Him. Jesus affirms this, by saying, “What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or, what can a man give in exchange for his soul?” -Matthew 16:26
Jesus is saying, in essentially saying, “if you give up your soul, you are giving up your very life. Not the life here on earth in this shell, we call, ”the body.’ You will be dead, in the truest sense of the word.” To help aggrandize the importance of the soul, perhaps, we should distinguish terms. Is the soul the life force of a creature? No. The spirit is the lifeforce in any given creature. The soul, therefore, is even greater than this. Paul corroborates this, by saying,
“For the Word of God is active and living, sharper than any double-edged sword. It penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit; joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.” -Hebrews 5:12-13
But how do we forfeit our own soul? Forfeiture of the soul is a deliberate act out of rebellion. Make no mistake, however, that no one can truly forfeit his or her soul in the sense that we might throw out the garbage. Jesus speaks this of in the sense that we would spend eternity away from Him. What a tragic end to be separated from the Father. When we die in this physical shell, it is the first death. The one to follow, spiritual death, is far worse a fate to undergo. Death in the flesh pales in comparison to that of spiritual death. What then, brings about death? In one word: SIN-- willful, deliberate sin.

    Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by dogrelata, posted 11-30-2006 2:15 PM dogrelata has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 9 by Sour, posted 12-01-2006 9:47 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
     Message 12 by dogrelata, posted 12-01-2006 1:49 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
     Message 20 by DominionSeraph, posted 12-01-2006 9:20 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

      
    Hyroglyphx
    Inactive Member


    Message 10 of 191 (367250)
    12-01-2006 11:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 9 by Sour
    12-01-2006 9:47 AM


    Re: The soul undaunted
    Do you regard altruistic behaviour by chimps as a different sort of morality? Is morality unique to humans because we are the only animals who think about it? If so, what is the altruistic behaviour that we share with chimps?
    Define altruistic behavior or give me examples of what chimps do in the wild that might qualify as true altruism. You know, I have three cats, and occasionally they display affection for one another by cleaning (licking) each other. This is very similar to what chimps do in the wild, which is, to preen each other and check for parasites. Does this qualify as altruism to you?
    This sounds like you are defining the soul as the sum of our parts, my gestalt self.
    Actually, I said the exact opposite. I thought I was explicit about that. I was asking the public if they thought the sum of our parts equal the human. I certainly don't.
    It is just a label for a thing that has no existence outside of me. This is not to say that I don't accept your position that I transcend my physical substance. The matter that makes up my body is replaced throughout my life, I am materially not the same person that was present at my fifth birthday, yet I remember it. That memory is a property of me that does transcend the matter I am made of. I could label as 'soul' the property which enables me to remember those events which I (the current 'I') was not physically present at. That doesn't make it holy or divine.
    So, to summarize, would you consider yourself to be firing synapses in the brain? Essentially, upon brain death, does your 'soul' die? Note: {When I say 'soul' I'm not using my definition, I'm trying to ascertain yours}.
    I'm interested in dogrelata's question about from when the soul originates, from a dogmatic perspective obviously.
    I am too. And now that you mention it, what are your thoughts on when a human becomes a human, as it relates to the soul, either orthodoxical or paradoxical.

    Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by Sour, posted 12-01-2006 9:47 AM Sour has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 11 by Phat, posted 12-01-2006 12:56 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
     Message 14 by dogrelata, posted 12-01-2006 2:16 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
     Message 18 by Sour, posted 12-01-2006 5:20 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

      
    Hyroglyphx
    Inactive Member


    Message 16 of 191 (367299)
    12-01-2006 3:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 12 by dogrelata
    12-01-2006 1:49 PM


    Re: The soul undaunted
    But I’d like to return to the debate if I may, and put my devil’s advocate hat back on. To this end, I’m going to concentrate solely on areas where we might be able to have some worthwhile debate, rather than get bogged down in the dogma.
    Alrighty then... Then lets start with some simpler concepts and work our way up. I certainly wouldn't harangue you for not understanding the concept of the soul. Indeed, I doubt that any one of us could fully understand it. Having said that, surely you have come up with some theories on what makes you, you. I break it down to physical units to see if anyone thinks that their mere physicality makes them who they are. In the broadest sense of the word, what makes you, you?
    Am I to take this to mean that you believe that animals do not possess souls? If so, I guess I need to ask if you consider a belief in the soul to be incompatible with a belief in the theory of evolution? Or are you suggesting that the soul evolved with man?
    No, I don't believe that animals have souls, which would make the Disney movie, "All dogs go to heaven," a fun little classic, but removed from truth. As far as the notion of the soul being compatible or incompatible with the ToE is not really a question that follows the premise. I don't see it as applicable to the discussion, since we are speaking philosophically. But to answer you as best I can, I don't believe in the prevailing theory of evolution for biological reasons, which, in turn, would dissuade me philosophically as well.
    So how should I assess anything that anybody has to say on the subject?
    Do you need to understand something 'fully' in order to know that it exists? Do you know every seminal thing about Black Holes? Do you know all that there is to know about love? I don't. Yet, I have enough evidence to know that such things exist. Its only a matter of understanding the "how's" and "why's" that they exist. The sane could be said of the soul, IMO.
    Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typo

    Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by dogrelata, posted 12-01-2006 1:49 PM dogrelata has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 17 by dogrelata, posted 12-01-2006 4:59 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

      
    Hyroglyphx
    Inactive Member


    Message 22 of 191 (367395)
    12-01-2006 10:38 PM
    Reply to: Message 17 by dogrelata
    12-01-2006 4:59 PM


    Re: The soul undaunted
    something that was not a human being evolved into a human being, begging the question, what part of that evolution caused the soul to come into being?
    I don't believe that human beings can be traced back to microbes, so I'm not a good candidate for that particular discussion.
    The notion that we are special and different, due to our ”higher’ consciousness is starting to come under serious threat. There may be plenty of other species that are just as ”special’. I don’t have a problem with that; I think it’s great. But I’m not clinging to some self-important conceit of my ”special’ place in the universe.
    Well, if animals have a special place, then kudos to them. I'm not sure what you mean by 'special' though. I've always seen higher intelligence to be as much of a burden as it is a blessing. How many times in your life have you envying the simplicity of animals? I know I have a time or two.
    Does god have a soul in the same sense that humankind does?
    I suppose God IS a soul, just as I believe humans are souls. I think we speak about souls in a possessive manner, but I tend to think that we are souls, rather than, have them.
    Did he develop a second soul when he visited earth in the body of Jesus? If so, what became of this second soul? If not, did Jesus have a soul at those times he was ”emptying himself of his divinity’?
    I think this is a misunderstanding of what the soul is. I don't think you can lose your soul or throw it away in a traditional sense like one throws out the garbage. If Jesus died then it was only a physical death. And even if He didn't take up His physical emobdiment again by cheating death, I would say that He lived on, regardless, just as I believe we all live on after physical death. Its only a matter of where we go.
    The real question for me was if we have always existed or not. Were we real prior to our physical manifestation? If Time is inconsequential to God, that would seem to indicate that we've always existed in His thoughts.

    Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 17 by dogrelata, posted 12-01-2006 4:59 PM dogrelata has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 27 by dogrelata, posted 12-02-2006 12:27 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

      
    Hyroglyphx
    Inactive Member


    Message 30 of 191 (367458)
    12-02-2006 1:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 27 by dogrelata
    12-02-2006 12:27 PM


    Re: The soul undaunted
    I’m not sure how comfortable I’d be with the idea if I were a believer though. It raises the question of, why bother with the whole earthly experience? For sure, I could come back with the old standby, “it’s not my place to question god’s will”, but that always seems like such a lame riposte.
    Well, sure, I've often wondered why, provided God exists, what need there is through going about this physical life. In fact, that is the one thing never mentioned in the Bible. At the same time, if we were to go by strict naturalism, there isn't any purpose to anything. Why not just forgo this whole thing, since it would be meaningless, and just put a bullet in your temple?
    But it’s quite an interesting idea though, for all that. If it were true, do you think that any soul could be united with any body?
    I have often wondered if thoughts don't actually come from the mind, per say, but rather if the mind is only the medium through which they are expressed. For instance, when we take an EKG of the brain and flash images of loved ones on a screen, we can see all sorts of brain activity. But maybe that is the brain discerning what is sees and as a result, you see all of these components of the brain active. Afterall, I think we might agree that love isn't actually just firing synapses or the release of dopamine. Indeed, there is something that yearns to be more laudable than mere chemical reactions.
    In other words, when somebody dies, they no longer can express themselves in the physical world. But maybe their thoughts and attitudes and all the finer intricacies that make us who we are live on some distant plane of existence, only we can no longer manifest them without the brain as a medium.
    Do you ever wonder how your life would have turned out if your soul had been united with the body of Richard Dawkins?
    Actually, I've never thought about that, but this is an interesting concept. I guess the belief that most closely models this, would be the Hindu belief of reincarnation where the soul lives on for eternity in different hosts throughout time.

    Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 27 by dogrelata, posted 12-02-2006 12:27 PM dogrelata has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 32 by Woodsy, posted 12-02-2006 5:34 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
     Message 33 by dogrelata, posted 12-03-2006 9:53 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
     Message 77 by melatonin, posted 12-12-2006 2:48 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

      
    Hyroglyphx
    Inactive Member


    Message 35 of 191 (367549)
    12-03-2006 11:22 AM
    Reply to: Message 32 by Woodsy
    12-02-2006 5:34 PM


    Re: The soul undaunted
    quote:
    Afterall, I think we might agree that love isn't actually just firing synapses or the release of dopamine. Indeed, there is something that yearns to be more laudable than mere chemical reactions.
    This is a presumptuous assumption on your part. You have no way of knowing what we all might agree on.
    Which would make my inclusion of the word "might," cover nicely.
    What do you have against chemical reactions?
    Nothing.
    Do you really detest the physical world as you seem to claim? If so, why?
    Detest the physical world? Of course not. However, the temporal world is a fleeting moment. Do you have children, sir or madam, only to view them as the random collocation of cells? If you believe that all we really are is a chemical soup, I'd ask for you to read my first post on the matter to understand how I have come to my beliefs.
    If our personalities are an emergent property of our bodies, what is wrong with that? It seems quite sufficiently marvellous to me without invoking undetectable ghosts to inhabit those bodies.
    Indeed, it is marvellous. Perhaps, then, you can explain to us what makes you, you. Would we need to view you holistically in order to know who you are-- your entire gestalt-self? Clearly not, as we're communicating with typed words, and yet, we each, clearly have unique qualities. In other words, "who we are" somehow comes through in our words making our posts easily identifiable. I find that fascinating.

    Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 32 by Woodsy, posted 12-02-2006 5:34 PM Woodsy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 39 by Woodsy, posted 12-03-2006 5:10 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

      
    Hyroglyphx
    Inactive Member


    Message 41 of 191 (367585)
    12-03-2006 6:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 39 by Woodsy
    12-03-2006 5:10 PM


    Re: The soul undaunted
    This is disingenuous. People are neither random collections of cells nor chemical soup.
    Then what are you? Who makes you, you? What makes you unique from every one else?
    As for your post, it is so wrapped in cant and verbosity that I can make nothing of it.
    The other readers seemed to understand it. Maybe you can't engender any feeling from it because such an experience has never come to you.

    Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 39 by Woodsy, posted 12-03-2006 5:10 PM Woodsy has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 42 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-03-2006 8:52 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
     Message 46 by DominionSeraph, posted 12-04-2006 1:53 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

      
    Hyroglyphx
    Inactive Member


    Message 44 of 191 (367608)
    12-03-2006 11:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 42 by Archer Opteryx
    12-03-2006 8:52 PM


    Re: The soul, enslimed but undaunted
    To suggest that people are 'random collections of cells' or 'chemical soup' is fallacious on the grounds of reductionism.
    Am I reducing the worth of a human being or are they? See, we have one group that claims that humans are no different, than say, your banana slug. Each has equal value. If we have equal value, then what makes the slug, a slug? Aren't we all made of matter? Or is there something transcendental at work in the lives of either us, the slug, or both?
    The idea is to force the listener into concluding the existence of a soul because, after all, everyone feels they are worth more than four euros.
    What makes any of us worth more than four, five, six, or a billion Euros? What does it all mean?
    The soul is offered as a rationalization.
    Shouldn't it be? I mean, even if the soul were what the Greeks thought it was, which really is secular in nature, would you find it easier to ascribe to the notion of a soul? I think on some level we all understand that there is a vast difference between humans and slugs. The greater the intelligence of a being, the more we, as humans, seem to find some sort of companionship.
    Many kinds of worth exist but the argument takes no notice.
    Then you must inexorably find yourself at parity with the slug, no? You either consecrated or you aren't.
    Note that the banana slug is more than a random collection of chemicals or cells. This is a functioning organism. It possesses integrated physical features. It possesses appetites, intentions, senses, the ability to learn and to reproduce. It feels pain and, in the face of threats to its life, will endeavor to preserve itself.
    I think you crediting the slug with far more cognizance than what we can presently know about such a creature.
    A banana slug is a living being.
    Indeed... But then again, so is a blade of grass.
    Where are the theologians arguing for a soul for this creature? By your argument the banana slug must surely possess one.
    How have you deduced by my argument that the slug must surely possess one?
    On the grounds you have suggested there is no reason to deny this creature its soul. So what do you say? Does it have one?
    The slug has a spirit-- the breath of life. But if we can break this far down using your logic, could we surmise that bacteria, nematodes, or fungi have souls? What do you think makes the soul? Do you believe in the Judaic version of a soul, or the Hindi, or the Greek? What does it encapsulate? Can it be fully understood? When does a lifeform receive its soul, etc?
    __

    Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 42 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-03-2006 8:52 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 45 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-04-2006 12:55 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
     Message 47 by Woodsy, posted 12-04-2006 8:08 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

      
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