Human Rights

Why? See, that's what I asked you before, and all you've done is repeat that.If a woman chooses to drive a car, knowing that there's always the risk of a crash, does she give up her right to have a seatbelt? Have an airbag? Have paramedics arrive and treat her in the case of a crash?No. Merely accepting a level of risk doesn't mean you don't get to take actions, like abortion, when your number comes up and you find yourself in the situation you had hoped to avoid. When that happens you still get to take steps to mitigate the unwanted consequences. I'm sure you don't go around telling paramedics they can't respond to car accidents simply because the drivers "accepted the risk." Even burn victims get to mitigate the consequences of their actions.

This whole thread orbits this point. But that fluff holds no water. You haven`t been able to support your point. People have the right to do whatever they want, unless there is some over-riding reason. Instead of asking us why sex+abortion is a right, you should be presenting us some over-riding reason why they might not be a right. You have not done that.

That's not what I said I feel it's morally wrong to destroy an animals life. RiverRat has stated stated that he felt that was an exception along with rape, for the purposes of this dicussion.. (at least he did in the PNT). Regardless.. not all pregnancies are harmful. So.. what exactly do you see as being the difference between a late term foetus, and a newborn baby?Both are fully dependant on a 'parent'
Both cannot really exert their will or communicate their wishes.
Both are living.This is where I have problems with this issue.Does the newborn have responsibilities? can it be held accountable for its actions? or, is it ok to terminate it if you decide it's unwanted?

Plants, too? Insects? I'm just curious how far vegetarianism goes. They all can be, though. The responsibilities necessary to preserve the life of a newborn can be passed along to another person. The responsibilities necessary to preserve the life of a fetus or zygote cannot. (Not yet, anyway.)That's the pretty big difference, for me. You can't get a fetus or zygote out of a uterus without its death. It's a sad biological fact, but it doesn't place any onus on the woman to meet those responsibilities if she opts not to allow another human being to reside inside of her and leach nourishment from her body at a potential risk to her health. Either/or, it necessitates the conclusion that abortion is an option women must be allowed to have. You can't say that the zygote is a fully-fledged human, but then deny it has any responsibilities vis-a-vis its trespassing on another human's body.

that's an entirely different discussion But the woman/man involved are responsible (through their intercourse) for that 'human being' being there. therefore I see it as their responsibility to ensure the welfare of that 'human being'If you get me in a situation (intentionally or by accident) whereby i am dependant on your actions for my survival. Is it moral for you to ignore my welfare? given that I wouldn't be in this situation if it weren't for you?for example.. you drive into in your car, an inquest shows that although unintentional, you are at fault. I now depend on your insurance or your money to pay for my life saving hospital operation.
By your logic, you have absolutely no responsibility to ensure my welfare. I'm not sure that I said the zygote is a 'fully fledged' human (whatever that is). but I certainly don't think it is responsible for its own existance in any way.

But still one could not be forced to donate a kidny to save the other. Besides, and more importantly for the case of the womb renter, the fetus would have to have personhood status which is, off couse, an essential part of the discussion...

It used to be, I didn't, and you were shit out of luck if I didn't have the resources at hand to pay for your care. Now the law mandates that a driver has to be insured. (Good idea.)But what you're talking about is financial responsibility, not moral responsibility. I'm not the one who's obligated to perform the surgeries, etc. I'm simply obligated to pay for it since it was my fault. Of course, if I can't pay, then you're not going to get any money except from your own insurance.What you're talking about is a financial arrangement. I'm not obligated to provide you with my kidney or liver, for instance, even though it was my fault that you need new ones. Even my legal responsibility to fixing the results of my poor judgment (or whatever) don't extend so far as to violate my own body sovereignty. Even my moral responsibility doesn't give you the right to take those organs from me, against my will.So we make women who want abortions have to pay for them (and perhaps people like me who disagree with your position entirely set up charities to help those who can't.) Oh, wait, that's what we have already. But the parent's responsibility for creating life, to accept that phrasing for a moment, still doesn't extend so far as to mandate that the woman must allow another human to reside within her and leech off her body's resources.

{ABE: If you had the skills, and if in fact you were the ONLY person who had the required skills, do you not feel you would be obligated to use them to save my life?}Financial or moral... you have a responsibility to do whatever you can to help me seeing as you put me in this position.
admittedly I would draw the line at endangering your own life. I'm not sure I have a definite 'position' to disagree with I would suggest that very few, if any, abortions were carried out as a result of a womans fear for her bodies 'resources'. except in life threatening situations.Edited by Creavolution, : inital paragraph added toEdited by Creavolution, : No reason given.

Show me where I insulted you, I posted you have trouble understanding. Seeing as how I compared birth control safety to seat belt safety not the act of intercourse, then you took it that I was comparing seat belts to sex is you misunderstanding. No you do not understand, to say I insulted you, then you prove I'm right in the stating you are having trouble understanding You either purposely take peoples positions out of context, or you are having trouble understanding. First, you saying I insulted you does not fly in face of the evidence, second I have been here longer than you and know this little statement
that you made is not for you to decide. You first. You should heed your own words.

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Look to this day, For yesterday is already a dream. And tomorrow only a vision. But today We lived, makes every Yesterday a dream of Happiness and every tomorrow A vision of hope. Look well there to This day.

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So basically it's anything you say, goes? Shraff, it's my house - I have no right to kill anyone in it.

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Do you have the right to, say, have a benign tumor removed from your body?

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The semantics are irrelevant. You call it a zygote, a fruitbar or a baby. We both refer to ones that are formed to a recognizable extent, in many cases.

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No, semantics/definitions are not irrelevant at all.Definitions are, in fact, the crux of the argument.At one end of the spectrum, we have a fertilized egg.At the other end of the spectrum, we have a living full-term baby that has been born.Are you saying that a fertilized egg is exactly the same as a newborn infant?If not, why not?

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why shouldn't it have rights?

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Because it isn't a person.But you never answered the question, mike;Who owns the womb?The woman or "it"?

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ABSOLUTELY !!!!
That is why you can decline intercourse.

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So, that means that you think that if a woman has sex and gets pregnant, she no longer has the right to control her own body?As soon as she becomes pregnant, she no longer has any say over what happens in her uterus, according to you.Is that correct?

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A zygote is not part of the woman’s body.

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No, but her uterus is part of her body.Again, are you saying that once the egg is fertilized in her fallopian tube or the zygote implants in her uterus, she no longer has the right to control her own fallopian tubes or uterus?Are you saying that once that fertilized egg gets in there, it has all the rights and the woman has none?

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There is a large difference between chopping off your leg, and having an abortion.

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Yes. I fail to understand why this is relevant.

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Right, once she decides to have intercourse, she has made that decision, and relinquishes the "right" and it becomes a privilege to rip it out.

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No, it's a right to have sex or not, and it is a right to be pregnant or not.(It would really help if you could restrain yourself from using such overwrought, hysterical language.)

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Zygotes do not "take up residence" like some kind of unwanted tumor.

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Er, yeah, that's pretty much exactly what they do.We are, by definition, talking about unwanted pregnancies here, aren't we?

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zygotes only get there by a woman having perfect control over her body and making a decision that can lead to the zygote getting there in the first place.

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LOL! Yeah, and where is this "perfect planet" where all women have "perfect control" over their bodies and what happens with them at all time?Birth control fails, rat. People make poor decisions about sex sometimes.The risk of getting pregnant is there, even if both partners are surgically sterilized, even if it is very small.Do you seriously think that it's reasonable to require, say, a married couple (one of whom is sterilized) who don't want or shouldn't have (due to health reasons) any more children to never, ever have intercourse again?

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Zygotes do not ask to be put there

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Nope. Zygotes don't ask for anything, seeing as they aren't people. But they can be removed if the woman so wishes.

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Stay on topic, I strictly asked that we not discuss when life begins.
We are talking about rights, not life.

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But when the zygote becomes a "person" is the basis of mike's argument. He is saying, essentially, that the moment a woman becomes pregnant, she gives up the right to control her own body because the zygote is a "person".If neither you nor he are willing to say when the zygote is a person, then you have no argument to stand on.

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The woman, the woman. She has the right to consent to intercourse.

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But what happens to her "ownership" of her uterus as soon as the zygote gets there?Does she cease to own her own uterus at that moment?

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I am sure technology has increased the amount of abortions, so I am not ridiculus.

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Why are you sure?

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I mean if I jump off a cliff, and hurt myself, is it my right to get health care?

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Yes, of course it is.

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Yeah, because you're a fellow mind; an adult of independent will and experience. A unique individual, fully human.I don't consider any of those things to be true about zygotes, but I do consider them to be true about those who might find themselves in the position to host a zygote that they don't want, which is why I come down firmly against forced birth. When I see the rights of an adult woman (or, god forbid, a child) set against the rights of some cells; against the rights of a living organism completely incapable of thought or will, nor capable even of feeling anything but the most transient of experiences - that's not a difficult moral calculus for me to solve. The tragedy of a woman forced into giving birth far, far outweighs the destruction of a being completely incapable of experience. How much danger are we talking about? That's happening, though. In every case, the zygote is drawing nourishment via its antagonistic relationship at the placenta/uterine interface. (The more you study the biology of this, the more you can see that the relationship of embryo to mother is truly an antagonistic one.)