Human Rights

Who owns the womb, rat?The woman or the zygote/fetus?

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You are going down the same path as crashfrog. I don't see what that has to do with rights.

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It has to do with rights because a person has a right to control their own bodies.

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The woman owns the womb, and she and a man can create something in it, and then destroy it. How is that a right?

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You agreed that the woman, not the zygote/fetus, owns her womb'.Thus, she has the right to contol what happens to it, just like she has the right to control anything else that happens to any other part of her body.

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The "zygote", as you call it, is not their own body.

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But it is in the woman's body, which she has a right to control.

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The matter "zygote" occupies it's own space.

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No, it occupies a woman's uterus.

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There is a zygote in woman, but not a woman in zygote.

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Right. A woman has a right to control what happens to her own body, including what takes up residence in that body.

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A zygote, can be a recognizabley formed person. You did say that a person has a right to control their own body.

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What is your definition of a "person"?Can you explain how a zygote/fetus is a person?

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Yet reality dictates that she somewhat did forego this right when she fulfilled parameter A, knowing that it would lead to a potential person 2 with those same rights.

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Who owns the womb?The woman or the zygote/fetus?

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The zygote lives, and is in woman-territory.

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Who owns the womb?The woman or the zygote/fetus?

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So basically it's anything you say, goes? Shraff, it's my house - I have no right to kill anyone in it.

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Do you have the right to, say, have a benign tumor removed from your body?

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The semantics are irrelevant. You call it a zygote, a fruitbar or a baby. We both refer to ones that are formed to a recognizable extent, in many cases.

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No, semantics/definitions are not irrelevant at all.Definitions are, in fact, the crux of the argument.At one end of the spectrum, we have a fertilized egg.At the other end of the spectrum, we have a living full-term baby that has been born.Are you saying that a fertilized egg is exactly the same as a newborn infant?If not, why not?

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why shouldn't it have rights?

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Because it isn't a person.But you never answered the question, mike;Who owns the womb?The woman or "it"?

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ABSOLUTELY !!!!
That is why you can decline intercourse.

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So, that means that you think that if a woman has sex and gets pregnant, she no longer has the right to control her own body?As soon as she becomes pregnant, she no longer has any say over what happens in her uterus, according to you.Is that correct?

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A zygote is not part of the woman’s body.

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No, but her uterus is part of her body.Again, are you saying that once the egg is fertilized in her fallopian tube or the zygote implants in her uterus, she no longer has the right to control her own fallopian tubes or uterus?Are you saying that once that fertilized egg gets in there, it has all the rights and the woman has none?

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There is a large difference between chopping off your leg, and having an abortion.

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Yes. I fail to understand why this is relevant.

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Right, once she decides to have intercourse, she has made that decision, and relinquishes the "right" and it becomes a privilege to rip it out.

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No, it's a right to have sex or not, and it is a right to be pregnant or not.(It would really help if you could restrain yourself from using such overwrought, hysterical language.)

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Zygotes do not "take up residence" like some kind of unwanted tumor.

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Er, yeah, that's pretty much exactly what they do.We are, by definition, talking about unwanted pregnancies here, aren't we?

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zygotes only get there by a woman having perfect control over her body and making a decision that can lead to the zygote getting there in the first place.

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LOL! Yeah, and where is this "perfect planet" where all women have "perfect control" over their bodies and what happens with them at all time?Birth control fails, rat. People make poor decisions about sex sometimes.The risk of getting pregnant is there, even if both partners are surgically sterilized, even if it is very small.Do you seriously think that it's reasonable to require, say, a married couple (one of whom is sterilized) who don't want or shouldn't have (due to health reasons) any more children to never, ever have intercourse again?

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Zygotes do not ask to be put there

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Nope. Zygotes don't ask for anything, seeing as they aren't people. But they can be removed if the woman so wishes.

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Stay on topic, I strictly asked that we not discuss when life begins.
We are talking about rights, not life.

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But when the zygote becomes a "person" is the basis of mike's argument. He is saying, essentially, that the moment a woman becomes pregnant, she gives up the right to control her own body because the zygote is a "person".If neither you nor he are willing to say when the zygote is a person, then you have no argument to stand on.

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The woman, the woman. She has the right to consent to intercourse.

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But what happens to her "ownership" of her uterus as soon as the zygote gets there?Does she cease to own her own uterus at that moment?

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I am sure technology has increased the amount of abortions, so I am not ridiculus.

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Why are you sure?

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I mean if I jump off a cliff, and hurt myself, is it my right to get health care?

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Yes, of course it is.

Forced birth.You know, that phrase you just used struck a chord with me.That's really what riverrat, mike the wiz and others talk about when they want to deny women the right to body autonomy.They like to say that we are merely using "semantics" when we use the correct medical/biological terms, such as "zygote" or "fetus", yet they never do come right out and admit that what they are advocating is forcing women to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth, regardless of the woman's wishes.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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That is correct. She had the right to control her own body before commiting to intercourse. After she gets pregnant, she has the privilage of getting an abortion, not a "right."

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So, that means that it is your position that she does not own her uterus the moment she becomes pregnant. It appears that your position is that the zygote owns the uterus and the woman has no right to control her own organ anymore.So, a woman who is pregnant does not have the right to control her own uterus anymore, according to you, is that correct?That contradicts your earlier statement that she does, in fact, own her uterus, not the fetus.

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I'll ask you, what rights of a woman get violated if a man rapes her, and impregnates her?

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The same rights she has at any other time; the right to body autonomy.It's her uterus.

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Also, I thought we determined that a zygote is not part of her body.

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No it isn't, but her uterus is part of her body.I suppose if it is your position that a woman gives up her right to bodily autonomy as soon as she gets pregnant, it means you are advocating forced birth.How very...controlling of you.

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But that's the root of it.

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Yes, I agree.

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Am I forcing a woman to have sex?

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You are forcing your own morality upon how she deals with one of the consequences of sex.

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To get pregnant?

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No. You are forcing her to be pregnant, if you believe that she does not have the right to body autonomy; to control her own organs.

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No, so I am not forcing her to have an aboprtion, or to carry to term.

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Yes, you just did.When you say that a woman no longer has the right to body autonomy, and it is merely a "privilage" (implying that it is a nice thing to allow women to have but it can be taken away at whim) rather than a right, then you are, in essence, forcing her to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth.

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The womans wishes were already determined once she AND the man consent to intercourse, I or anyone else has litlle to do with it.

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So, by this logic, a woman who consents to sex and contracts a STD was actually desireous of getting the disease, is that correct?There is a difference between consenting to have intercourse and wishing to become pregnant. That you are conflating the two is particularly lame, rat. This has already been pointed out to you in this thread.Consenting to sex and wishing to be pregnant are not the same thing.

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You make it seem like it's our fault that woman get pregnant, who don't want to be, and that is BS. I'm calling BS on that one schraf, you'll have to do better.

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Excuse me? I never said or implied anything of the sort. That's straight from your imagination, I'm afraid.

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No, I can't think of it like that. But even if I did, it still doesn't mean I have a right to get rid of my desease. I got what I took a chance for, and now I would just be lucky to get rid of it, not have a right to.

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So, what you are saying is that all of those people with AIDS should be left to suffer horribly and die because they knew the risks and have no right to medical treatment.All of those people who get cancer, emphysema, heart disease, strokes, diabetes, etc, due to smoking, poor diet, lack of exercise, and stress have no right to treatment, according to you, because they knew the risks of those behaviors and went ahead and did them anyway.Correct?

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How did the zygote get there?

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Probably through intercourse.Who owns the uterus, rat?According to you, it's the zygote, not the woman.

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You act as if some alien abducted her and impregnated her.

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Er, not I don't. I know perfectly well how pregnancy occurs.Consenting to have sex is not the same as consenting to being pregnant.

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Your point is mute in this discussion, I have said like three times already, that a woman owns her womb. What she does with it, is none of my business.

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If you really believe this, then why won't you shut the fuck up about abortion?Look, you say the above, but it is just so many words. Everything else you have said in this thread makes it abundantly clear that you DO, very very much, think it is your business what women do with their own uteruses, and that the moment they becomes pregnant, they suddenly do not get to control all aspects of their organs anymore.

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Finally someone answers that question.

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So when a man rapes her, he violates that right, but when a woman gives herself up willingly, she hasn't given up that same right?

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When a man rapes a woman, her right to body autonomy has been violated.When she chooses to have sex willingly, she hasn't given up any rights.When a woman is raped or has consentual intercourse, and becomes pregnant as a result, she has the right to decide if she wants to remain pregnant or not.HOW she became pregnant is completely, utterly, and totally irrelevant to her right to body autonomy.Consenting to sex and consenting to be pregnant are not the same thing.Consenting to sex and consenting to be pregnant are not the same thing.Consenting to sex and consenting to be pregnant are not the same thing.Consenting to sex and consenting to be pregnant are not the same thing.Consenting to sex and consenting to be pregnant are not the same thing.

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If I do anything at all to myself, that can include some kind of consequence, do I really have a right to correct it, or is it just a privilage.

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If you are injured or sick, you have the right to medical care, regardless of how you became sick or injured....at least, in civilized places this is the case.

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I did to myself, I deserve it. I deserve anything that becomes of it, whether it can be fixed or not.

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How punitive and judgemental you are, rat. Are shame and guilt a big part of your life? Can't people make mistakes in your world without self-hatred and blame and punishment?

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What's withyou and crash, stop the smearing, and the insults. Stop violating the rules. Why should anyone listen to what you have to say, when all you can do is insult me? Now once in this thread did I say that a woman can't get an abortion, so what's your problem?

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You have said that woman give up their right to body autonomy when they become pregnant. That they no longer control their uteruses at that point. Furthermore, you have said that although it's nice that we currently allow women the right to control their organs, it's just something nice that we allow them and not a constitutional right.That sounds an awful lot like you are advocating forced birth to me, or at least wanting to have a great deal of control over all women's uteruses.There is no insult, and I have not violated any rules.

Just so you know, mike, I was always perfectly calm.I was utterly calm when I wrote "...then why won't you shut the fuck up about abortion?" in my message to rat.I think it's clear when you read that bit in context with the rest of my messages in this thread that I used "shut the fuck up" simply as emphasis, and not as an attack.However, if you or rat took it as an attack, I apologize. I certainly see how, especially through this written internet form, how it could be construed as such.

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Where do I say, (andI explained at least more than once) than people cannot get medical treatment for anything?
How do you get that from what I said?

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I used your logic, rat, and simply substituted "AIDS" for "unwanted pregnancy" in the equation.Both are possible consequences of intercourse.People know that one of the consequences for choosing to have sex is the possibility that they might get an STD.Using your logic, if they do get an STD, such as AIDS, they have no right to medical treatment to ameliorate the negative consequences of their choice to consent to sex.

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In all those instances, you would have a hard time proving what did what.

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No, not really.The evidence is incredibly strong that smoking causes cancer and ephysema, and that obesity greatly contributes to diabetes, etc.Not everyone who smokes will get cancer, just like not every woman who has intercourse will get pregnant.However, if someone smokes and gets cancer, they have the right to get medical treatment to remove their cancer, even though they most likely knew that smoking greatly increased their chances of getting cancer. They also have the right to refuse treatment and simply receive the full force of the consequences of their actions.Likewise, if someone has sex and becomes pregnant, they have the right to medical treatment to terminate the pregnancy, even though they most likely knew that having sex greatly increases their chances of becoming pregnant. They also have the right to refuse treatment and simply receive the full force of the consequences of their actions.

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Plus not everyone who smoked knew that it was bad for them.

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Anybody who has started smoking in the last 30-40 years, at least, knows that it is very unhealthy.

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Not only that, there is a difference between a healthy pregnancy, and an unhealthy desease. Just because a pregnancy is unwanted, doesn't make it bad for you.

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All pregnancies risk the health of the girl or woman.All preganacies are more risky than an abortion.And this is irrelevant.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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He isn't forcing her to be pregnant. She is already pregnant hypothetically.

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He is forcing her to remain pregnant.