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Author Topic:   Human Rights
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 91 of 303 (367367)
12-01-2006 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by crashfrog
12-01-2006 6:48 PM


Forced birth.
You know, that phrase you just used struck a chord with me.
That's really what riverrat, mike the wiz and others talk about when they want to deny women the right to body autonomy.
They like to say that we are merely using "semantics" when we use the correct medical/biological terms, such as "zygote" or "fetus", yet they never do come right out and admit that what they are advocating is forcing women to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth, regardless of the woman's wishes.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by crashfrog, posted 12-01-2006 6:48 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by crashfrog, posted 12-01-2006 7:38 PM nator has not replied
 Message 100 by riVeRraT, posted 12-02-2006 9:09 AM nator has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 92 of 303 (367368)
12-01-2006 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by nator
12-01-2006 7:35 PM


You know, that phrase you just used struck a chord with me.
It's the language they use on sites like WordPress › ReadMe, and I think it's completely accurate. The whole issue is about forcing women to carry a pregnancy to term.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by nator, posted 12-01-2006 7:35 PM nator has not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 93 of 303 (367401)
12-02-2006 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by crashfrog
12-01-2006 6:48 PM


crashfrog writes:
Yeah, because you're a fellow mind; an adult of independent will and experience. A unique individual, fully human.
and if I was say.. 1 day old child?
we're heading toward the crux of the whole matter here. at what point does the clump of cells become a human.
crashfrog writes:
How much danger are we talking about?
good question, we take risks all the time, walking on a busy street, driving a car, riding a motorcycle, getting pregnant... It would be interesting to see what the biggest killers were

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by crashfrog, posted 12-01-2006 6:48 PM crashfrog has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 94 of 303 (367420)
12-02-2006 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by crashfrog
12-01-2006 11:50 AM


I still don't see how it becomes a moral wrong to destroy that life. Particularly when its presence is harmful and unwanted.
We are not talking about morals here.
I have discussions with some liberals as to just how important all life is here on this planet, every living thing. They would find it morally wrong to go fishing, yet not have a rpoblem with abortion, so.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by crashfrog, posted 12-01-2006 11:50 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Heathen, posted 12-02-2006 10:19 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 95 of 303 (367422)
12-02-2006 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by crashfrog
12-01-2006 11:55 AM


Re: Giving up your right
If a woman chooses to drive a car, knowing that there's always the risk of a crash, does she give up her right to have a seatbelt? Have an airbag? Have paramedics arrive and treat her in the case of a crash?
What??? That comparison is the worst one by far. You should have said if a woman chooses to drive a car, and gets into an accident, and the seatbelt fails, does she have a right to medical treatment.
I say, if someone is in iminent danger, and can be fixed from their injuries, then they should be helped. But a normal healthy pregnancy is not an injury.
But whether she has a right to it, can be looked at differently. Why was she driving? For fun, or for need? If it was just for fun, then she took that risk of driving a car.
Just like if I started riding motorcycles, I increase my risk. I know this, and I have no one to really complain too if I get into an accident, and it is completely my fault, and I was just driving around for fun. I don't really have a right to be healthy again, I have the privilage based on how good the medical treatment is for my injuries. Again, I do not see a healthy pregnancy comparible to an injury. Women can have babies and have perfectly healthy lives, maybe even more healthy, as breast feeding can help prevent breast cancer. If I cut my arm off in a motorcycle accident, it will never be healthy again without medical treatment. So there is a big difference when comapring the two, and it is not as black and white as you make it out to be.
No. Merely accepting a level of risk doesn't mean you don't get to take actions, like abortion,
No you do get to take action, according to our current society and medical advancments. That has little to do with whether it is a right or not.
I'm sure you don't go around telling paramedics they can't respond to car accidents simply because the drivers "accepted the risk."
See your missing the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by crashfrog, posted 12-01-2006 11:55 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by crashfrog, posted 12-02-2006 9:48 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 105 by fallacycop, posted 12-02-2006 11:57 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 96 of 303 (367423)
12-02-2006 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by fallacycop
12-01-2006 12:35 PM


Re: Maybe another way to look at it
I think Message 70 explains it pretty clearly, and no one has challenged what I said about a womans rights being violated if she gets raped and inpregnated.
Tell me, what right was violated?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by fallacycop, posted 12-01-2006 12:35 PM fallacycop has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 97 of 303 (367424)
12-02-2006 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by crashfrog
12-01-2006 12:46 PM


But wait a minute
You can't get a fetus or zygote out of a uterus without its death.
And most woman cannot/won't get an abortion unless a doctor does it.
So what happens when it becomes medically possible to support a zygotes life until it doesn't need support anymore?
What about neonatal babies? Should we go around disconnecting all their life support systems, based on the premise that they cannot survive on their own, so they deserve to not have a chance at life?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by crashfrog, posted 12-01-2006 12:46 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by crashfrog, posted 12-02-2006 9:51 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 98 of 303 (367426)
12-02-2006 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by crashfrog
12-01-2006 1:47 PM


Of course, if I can't pay, then you're not going to get any money except from your own insurance.
Isn't there a difference between can't pay, and won't pay?
A woman doesn't get an abortion because she can't carry out the term. (well some do, and thats ok to me)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by crashfrog, posted 12-01-2006 1:47 PM crashfrog has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 99 of 303 (367427)
12-02-2006 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by nator
12-01-2006 4:12 PM


So, that means that you think that if a woman has sex and gets pregnant, she no longer has the right to control her own body?
That is correct. She had the right to control her own body before commiting to intercourse. After she gets pregnant, she has the privilage of getting an abortion, not a "right."
I'll ask you, what rights of a woman get violated if a man rapes her, and impregnates her?
Also, I thought we determined that a zygote is not part of her body.
No, it's a right to have sex or not, and it is a right to be pregnant or not.
A right to be pregnant or not? Can a woman make herself preganant at will?
Can she control anything about it, other than just taking the chance of getting pregnant? Isn't the rest up to nature?
If a woman has complete control over her womb, then there are a lot of woman who desire to be pregnant, but can't be. Do they have a right to be pregnant?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by nator, posted 12-01-2006 4:12 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by crashfrog, posted 12-02-2006 9:53 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 114 by nator, posted 12-02-2006 4:03 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 100 of 303 (367429)
12-02-2006 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by nator
12-01-2006 7:35 PM


what they are advocating is forcing women to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth, regardless of the woman's wishes.
But that's the root of it. Am I forcing a woman to have sex? To get pregnant? No, so I am not forcing her to have an aboprtion, or to carry to term.
The womans wishes were already determined once she AND the man consent to intercourse, I or anyone else has litlle to do with it.
You make it seem like it's our fault that woman get pregnant, who don't want to be, and that is BS. I'm calling BS on that one schraf, you'll have to do better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by nator, posted 12-01-2006 7:35 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by nator, posted 12-02-2006 4:12 PM riVeRraT has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 101 of 303 (367434)
12-02-2006 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by riVeRraT
12-02-2006 8:49 AM


Re: Giving up your right
What??? That comparison is the worst one by far.
All these comparisons are going to be faulty on one level. But you need to be addressing the situation, not how you think it's different. You say that a pregnancy is not like an injury but clearly, an unwanted pregnancy is exactly like an unwanted injury or infection. Think of it like a sexually transmitted disease.
I say, if someone is in imminent danger, and can be fixed from their injuries, then they should be helped.
Why? She knew the risks. Why shouldn't she "accept responsibility" and help herself? Why should she have the right of driving car + getting medical treatment? Where is that written?
That has little to do with whether it is a right or not.
Why wouldn't it be a right? I asked you that before but you never told me. You simply said you didn't see how it was, but you didn't explain why. And you're not the one who determines what rights are, so I don't see how your bare assertion on the matter is anything even worth considering.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by riVeRraT, posted 12-02-2006 8:49 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by riVeRraT, posted 12-02-2006 2:43 PM crashfrog has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 102 of 303 (367435)
12-02-2006 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by riVeRraT
12-02-2006 8:55 AM


Re: But wait a minute
Should we go around disconnecting all their life support systems, based on the premise that they cannot survive on their own, so they deserve to not have a chance at life?
Who on Earth made that premise? Riverrat I think you've been given a lot more than you're capable of responding to, already. You don't have the time here to invent strawmen to knock down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by riVeRraT, posted 12-02-2006 8:55 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by riVeRraT, posted 12-02-2006 2:46 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 103 of 303 (367436)
12-02-2006 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by riVeRraT
12-02-2006 9:05 AM


If a woman has complete control over her womb, then there are a lot of woman who desire to be pregnant, but can't be. Do they have a right to be pregnant?
Maybe you've heard of clinics where they specialize in that. As a matter of fact, she has exactly the same right to treatment for her infertility as she does for any other injury, disease, or disorder.
From what basis do you assert no right for women to become pregnant if they wish?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by riVeRraT, posted 12-02-2006 9:05 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 104 of 303 (367439)
12-02-2006 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by riVeRraT
12-02-2006 8:40 AM


riverrat writes:
We are not talking about morals here.
You've approached this topic from a very strange angle IMHO,
Firstly:
I don't see how you can exclude the issue of morals in one breath and in the next talk about infringing the personal freedoms of another 'person' in the next.
the two are inextricably linked. And both are certainly core to this topic.
Secondly:
Dicussing this without a clear opinion/position on when the fertilised egg becomes fully human is pointless, untill that is decided you may as well be having your appendix removed.
That said I think the 'burglar' or 'trespasser' analogies here are seriously flawed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by riVeRraT, posted 12-02-2006 8:40 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by riVeRraT, posted 12-02-2006 2:50 PM Heathen has not replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 105 of 303 (367450)
12-02-2006 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by riVeRraT
12-02-2006 8:49 AM


Re: Giving up your right
just like if I started riding motorcycles, I increase my risk. I know this, and I have no one to really complain too if I get into an accident, and it is completely my fault, and I was just driving around for fun. I don't really have a right to be healthy again, I have the privilage based on how good the medical treatment is for my injuries.
This is, hands down, one of the (how should I say that politely?) dumbest thing I ever heard coming out of your mouth, rR.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by riVeRraT, posted 12-02-2006 8:49 AM riVeRraT has not replied

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