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Author Topic:   What is a soul?
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 191 (367299)
12-01-2006 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by dogrelata
12-01-2006 1:49 PM


Re: The soul undaunted
But I’d like to return to the debate if I may, and put my devil’s advocate hat back on. To this end, I’m going to concentrate solely on areas where we might be able to have some worthwhile debate, rather than get bogged down in the dogma.
Alrighty then... Then lets start with some simpler concepts and work our way up. I certainly wouldn't harangue you for not understanding the concept of the soul. Indeed, I doubt that any one of us could fully understand it. Having said that, surely you have come up with some theories on what makes you, you. I break it down to physical units to see if anyone thinks that their mere physicality makes them who they are. In the broadest sense of the word, what makes you, you?
Am I to take this to mean that you believe that animals do not possess souls? If so, I guess I need to ask if you consider a belief in the soul to be incompatible with a belief in the theory of evolution? Or are you suggesting that the soul evolved with man?
No, I don't believe that animals have souls, which would make the Disney movie, "All dogs go to heaven," a fun little classic, but removed from truth. As far as the notion of the soul being compatible or incompatible with the ToE is not really a question that follows the premise. I don't see it as applicable to the discussion, since we are speaking philosophically. But to answer you as best I can, I don't believe in the prevailing theory of evolution for biological reasons, which, in turn, would dissuade me philosophically as well.
So how should I assess anything that anybody has to say on the subject?
Do you need to understand something 'fully' in order to know that it exists? Do you know every seminal thing about Black Holes? Do you know all that there is to know about love? I don't. Yet, I have enough evidence to know that such things exist. Its only a matter of understanding the "how's" and "why's" that they exist. The sane could be said of the soul, IMO.
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typo

Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by dogrelata, posted 12-01-2006 1:49 PM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by dogrelata, posted 12-01-2006 4:59 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5311 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 17 of 191 (367335)
12-01-2006 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Hyroglyphx
12-01-2006 3:00 PM


Re: The soul undaunted
I guess at this point I need to stop playing devil’s advocate and start giving something of myself to the debate - at least in this post.
nemesis juggernaut writes:
No, I don't believe that animals have souls, which would make the Disney movie, "All dogs go to heaven," a fun little classic, but removed from truth. As far as the notion of the soul being compatible or incompatible with the ToE is not really a question that follows the premise. I don't see it as applicable to the discussion
ToE suggests that species homo sapien evolved from other life forms - a path that can be traced right back to the earliest single celled stuff. So at some point in the evolutionary journey, something that was not a human being evolved into a human being, begging the question, what part of that evolution caused the soul to come into being? Which explains the relevance of my observation, but given that you do not believe in ToE, it becomes something of a redundant issue.
nemesis juggernaut writes:
Alrighty then... Then lets start with some simpler concepts and work our way up. I certainly wouldn't harangue you for not understanding the concept of the soul. Indeed, I doubt that not one of us could fully understand it. But, having said that, surely you have come up with some theories on what makes you, you.
I don’t want to launch into some long diatribe here, so I’ll settle for pointing you in the direction of Message 8 by Larni and Message 10 by Phat. Very broadly speaking, this is how I tend to see things.
So of course I understand the concept of what many like to call a soul. But it’s the ideas that follow on from that become contentious. Especially as research into animal behaviour is starting to seriously blur the lines between what it is to be human and what it is to be animal.
The notion that we are special and different, due to our ”higher’ consciousness is starting to come under serious threat. There may be plenty of other species that are just as ”special’. I don’t have a problem with that; I think it’s great. But I’m not clinging to some self-important conceit of my ”special’ place in the universe.
Okay, back to the devil’s advocate for one last session.
Let’s say for the sake of argument that god exists and that Jesus of Nazareth was god incarnate.
Does god have a soul in the same sense that humankind does? Did he develop a second soul when he visited earth in the body of Jesus? If so, what became of this second soul? If not, did Jesus have a soul at those times he was ”emptying himself of his divinity’?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-01-2006 3:00 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-01-2006 10:38 PM dogrelata has replied

  
Sour
Member (Idle past 2247 days)
Posts: 63
From: I don't know but when I find out there will be trouble. (Portsmouth UK)
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 18 of 191 (367343)
12-01-2006 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Hyroglyphx
12-01-2006 11:52 AM


Re: The soul undaunted
Define altruistic behavior or give me examples of what chimps do in the wild that might qualify as true altruism. You know, I have three cats, and occasionally they display affection for one another by cleaning (licking) each other. This is very similar to what chimps do in the wild, which is, to preen each other and check for parasites. Does this qualify as altruism to you?
Yes.
I thought I was explicit about that. I was asking the public if they thought the sum of our parts equal the human. I certainly don't.
Hm, I do. I do however accept that my parts are not solely the matter that make me.
So, to summarize, would you consider yourself to be firing synapses in the brain? Essentially, upon brain death, does your 'soul' die? Note: {When I say 'soul' I'm not using my definition, I'm trying to ascertain yours}.
I would consider synapse firing to be a part of me. By my definition of soul (created for this discussion) it would end at death, yes.
I am too. And now that you mention it, what are your thoughts on when a human becomes a human, as it relates to the soul, either orthodoxical or paradoxical.
Hmm. I guess it depends on how we define human. If simply a member of Homo sapiens, then at conception, or at birth if you don't accept that while within the womb the human has no independence. If we mean human with the required capacities and abilities then sometime after that. Vague answer I know.
edit :
Sorry, regarding my thoughts when a human becomes a human, as it relates to a soul; by my definition the soul grows with you.
Having offered an alternative non-eternal definition for soul I'll run with it. In reality, I think the concept as it is generally used is redundant - especially as a non physical motive force or similar.
Edited by Sour, : expanded thoughts on when a human becomes human as it relates to the soul
Edited by Sour, : spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-01-2006 11:52 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Sour
Member (Idle past 2247 days)
Posts: 63
From: I don't know but when I find out there will be trouble. (Portsmouth UK)
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 19 of 191 (367347)
12-01-2006 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by dogrelata
12-01-2006 2:03 PM


When I talk to others about it, or read about it, it’s very unclear to me what they’re trying to say. I tend to get answers like, ”if you were to experience it, you’d know what I was talking about’.
Understood. From my experience talking to people who believe in a soul, it's the bit that remains after death. When you ask what it actually is, you get a different answer for each person you ask.

This message is a reply to:
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DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4754 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 20 of 191 (367379)
12-01-2006 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Hyroglyphx
11-30-2006 11:10 PM


nemesis_juggernaut writes:
So then, what shall we say equates to true life? What makes us who we are? Answer: The soul.
So my cats have souls, as I am perfectly capable of imagining them in different bodies and having them still be themselves.
(simply changing the inputs is easier to deal with than removing the inputs, and it has the same effect.)
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
Consider the soul, then, to be the very [b]”essence’[/i] of being. It IS the existence. Everything else is an illusory.
Explain unconsciousness.
Edited by DominionSeraph, : No reason given.
Edited by DominionSeraph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-30-2006 11:10 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 191 (367392)
12-01-2006 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dogrelata
11-30-2006 2:15 PM


Soul = Non Physical Properties of Humans
Hi again, Dogrelata. Your thread raises some interesting and thought provoking questions. For what it's worth relative to your OP, Genesis 2:2 says (ASV) "And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
There is such a wide gap between the most intelligent animals and mankind that it appears that mankind is unique to the rest of life forms. Genesis also has intelligent mankind ruling over the animal kingdom which we observe to be the case. Imo, the implication to what we observe is that humans have something lacking in animals.
Someone asked if God and his son Jesus have souls. My answer to that is that the Holy Spirit is the essence of the soul of both God and Jesus. I see the soul and the spirit of humans as synonomous. It involves the psyche of man or that part of humans that is not physical. Thus at death there are no properties of the soul/spirit of a deceased person capable of destruction so far as is observable.
I'm not aware of any attempt by evolutionists to address this as to how the psyche/soul/spirit of humans in whom we observe an extremely high amount of (abe: complex intelligence) compared to the rest of life came to exist within the being of humankind. We're not talking physical touchable matter here which can be analyzed in laboratory of test tubes, et al, but a complex non physical spiritual/soulish psyche dimension which humans posess.
Imo, intelligent design better explains this higher soulish aspect observed in humans than random and natural processes.
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dogrelata, posted 11-30-2006 2:15 PM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by dogrelata, posted 12-02-2006 9:44 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 36 by Larni, posted 12-03-2006 1:57 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 191 (367395)
12-01-2006 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by dogrelata
12-01-2006 4:59 PM


Re: The soul undaunted
something that was not a human being evolved into a human being, begging the question, what part of that evolution caused the soul to come into being?
I don't believe that human beings can be traced back to microbes, so I'm not a good candidate for that particular discussion.
The notion that we are special and different, due to our ”higher’ consciousness is starting to come under serious threat. There may be plenty of other species that are just as ”special’. I don’t have a problem with that; I think it’s great. But I’m not clinging to some self-important conceit of my ”special’ place in the universe.
Well, if animals have a special place, then kudos to them. I'm not sure what you mean by 'special' though. I've always seen higher intelligence to be as much of a burden as it is a blessing. How many times in your life have you envying the simplicity of animals? I know I have a time or two.
Does god have a soul in the same sense that humankind does?
I suppose God IS a soul, just as I believe humans are souls. I think we speak about souls in a possessive manner, but I tend to think that we are souls, rather than, have them.
Did he develop a second soul when he visited earth in the body of Jesus? If so, what became of this second soul? If not, did Jesus have a soul at those times he was ”emptying himself of his divinity’?
I think this is a misunderstanding of what the soul is. I don't think you can lose your soul or throw it away in a traditional sense like one throws out the garbage. If Jesus died then it was only a physical death. And even if He didn't take up His physical emobdiment again by cheating death, I would say that He lived on, regardless, just as I believe we all live on after physical death. Its only a matter of where we go.
The real question for me was if we have always existed or not. Were we real prior to our physical manifestation? If Time is inconsequential to God, that would seem to indicate that we've always existed in His thoughts.

Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by dogrelata, posted 12-01-2006 4:59 PM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by dogrelata, posted 12-02-2006 12:27 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 23 of 191 (367407)
12-02-2006 1:57 AM


To me, to ask what a soul is, is silly and pointless.
I do not possess a soul. I am a soul.
Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by dogrelata, posted 12-02-2006 12:49 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 24 of 191 (367415)
12-02-2006 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by dogrelata
12-01-2006 2:30 PM


Re: Nothing but language.
No worries dude, I will keep watching this space and chime in when we get to Theory of Mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by dogrelata, posted 12-01-2006 2:30 PM dogrelata has not replied

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5311 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 25 of 191 (367432)
12-02-2006 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Buzsaw
12-01-2006 10:18 PM


Re: Soul = Non Physical Properties of Humans
Buzsaw writes:
There is such a wide gap between the most intelligent animals and mankind that it appears that mankind is unique to the rest of life forms. Genesis also has intelligent mankind ruling over the animal kingdom which we observe to be the case. Imo, the implication to what we observe is that humans have something lacking in animals.
As I alluded to in an earlier post, and indeed recently on another thread, recent developments in animal research is starting to bring into question the extent to which humans are unique in terms of self-awareness, abstract thought and even language capabilities. In the interests of balanced argument, I should emphasise the phrase ”bring into question’, because this research is far from conclusive. However, and this is somewhat hypothetical at the moment, if our previous observations prove unreliable, and humans do not possess anything that cannot also be found in (at least some) other animal species, would you feel obliged to reappraise your understanding of what a soul means to you?
Buzsaw writes:
It involves the psyche of man or that part of humans that is not physical. Thus at death there are no properties of the soul/spirit of a deceased person capable of destruction so far as is observable.
You seem to be making a monster leap of faith here. There is no evidence that the ”non physical’ aspects of human existence that you allude to arise out of anything other than that existence, and are consequently entirely dependant on it. I think if you want to make this case, it has to be as a matter of faith rather than reasoned argument.
Sorry, but part of being a sceptic involves treating faith-based ”knowledge’ with extreme caution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2006 10:18 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 12-02-2006 11:09 AM dogrelata has replied
 Message 31 by Buzsaw, posted 12-02-2006 4:02 PM dogrelata has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 191 (367443)
12-02-2006 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by dogrelata
12-02-2006 9:44 AM


Re: Soul = Non Physical Properties of Humans
dogrelata writes:
...recent developments in animal research is starting to bring into question the extent to which humans are unique in terms of self-awareness, abstract thought and even language capabilities.
all research is being done by humans. Could we even conceive of the animals doing the research on us? That to me suggests at least a minor difference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by dogrelata, posted 12-02-2006 9:44 AM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by dogrelata, posted 12-02-2006 12:43 PM Phat has not replied

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5311 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 27 of 191 (367453)
12-02-2006 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Hyroglyphx
12-01-2006 10:38 PM


Re: The soul undaunted
nemesis juggernaut writes:
I'm not sure what you mean by 'special' though.
I put the word ”special’ in quotes to indicate it wasn’t my sentiment, but rather the sentiment of others, especially those who tend to greet the notion of man as just another species with a degree of derision.
nemesis juggernaut writes:
The real question for me was if we have always existed or not. Were we real prior to our physical manifestation? If Time is inconsequential to God, that would seem to indicate that we've always existed in His thoughts.
This is related to one of the ideas I was throwing about in the OP. But I proposed it as a sceptic playing devil’s advocate. I’m not sure how comfortable I’d be with the idea if I were a believer though. It raises the question of, why bother with the whole earthly experience? For sure, I could come back with the old standby, “it’s not my place to question god’s will”, but that always seems like such a lame riposte.
But it’s quite an interesting idea though, for all that. If it were true, do you think that any soul could be united with any body? Do you ever wonder how your life would have turned out if your soul had been united with the body of Richard Dawkins?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-01-2006 10:38 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-02-2006 1:31 PM dogrelata has replied

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5311 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 28 of 191 (367454)
12-02-2006 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
12-02-2006 11:09 AM


Re: Soul = Non Physical Properties of Humans
Phat writes:
all research is being done by humans. Could we even conceive of the animals doing the research on us? That to me suggests at least a minor difference.
My only reply to that would be not yet. However we already have some pretty well established research which shows chimps out-performing humans in memory based puzzles.
But I take your point. However I’m not suggesting that we’re going to end up with antelopes performing brain surgery or penguins running government departments . not for a little while at least. But you’re surely not suggesting that humans with learning difficulties or a mental impairment are any less human or any less likely to have a soul as a result?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 12-02-2006 11:09 AM Phat has not replied

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5311 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 29 of 191 (367455)
12-02-2006 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-02-2006 1:57 AM


2ice baked taters writes:
To me, to ask what a soul is, is silly and pointless.
I do not possess a soul. I am a soul.
Cheers 2ice.
It’s always good to get a reply that’s concise and to the point.
Just for the record, would you say you are more of an expert on the silly and pointless or on the soul?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-02-2006 1:57 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-03-2006 5:52 PM dogrelata has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 191 (367458)
12-02-2006 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by dogrelata
12-02-2006 12:27 PM


Re: The soul undaunted
I’m not sure how comfortable I’d be with the idea if I were a believer though. It raises the question of, why bother with the whole earthly experience? For sure, I could come back with the old standby, “it’s not my place to question god’s will”, but that always seems like such a lame riposte.
Well, sure, I've often wondered why, provided God exists, what need there is through going about this physical life. In fact, that is the one thing never mentioned in the Bible. At the same time, if we were to go by strict naturalism, there isn't any purpose to anything. Why not just forgo this whole thing, since it would be meaningless, and just put a bullet in your temple?
But it’s quite an interesting idea though, for all that. If it were true, do you think that any soul could be united with any body?
I have often wondered if thoughts don't actually come from the mind, per say, but rather if the mind is only the medium through which they are expressed. For instance, when we take an EKG of the brain and flash images of loved ones on a screen, we can see all sorts of brain activity. But maybe that is the brain discerning what is sees and as a result, you see all of these components of the brain active. Afterall, I think we might agree that love isn't actually just firing synapses or the release of dopamine. Indeed, there is something that yearns to be more laudable than mere chemical reactions.
In other words, when somebody dies, they no longer can express themselves in the physical world. But maybe their thoughts and attitudes and all the finer intricacies that make us who we are live on some distant plane of existence, only we can no longer manifest them without the brain as a medium.
Do you ever wonder how your life would have turned out if your soul had been united with the body of Richard Dawkins?
Actually, I've never thought about that, but this is an interesting concept. I guess the belief that most closely models this, would be the Hindu belief of reincarnation where the soul lives on for eternity in different hosts throughout time.

Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by dogrelata, posted 12-02-2006 12:27 PM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Woodsy, posted 12-02-2006 5:34 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 33 by dogrelata, posted 12-03-2006 9:53 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 77 by melatonin, posted 12-12-2006 2:48 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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