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Author Topic:   Childhood Vaccinations – Necessary or Overkill?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 151 of 327 (367349)
12-01-2006 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by nator
12-01-2006 4:49 PM


Re: Antibiotics
quote:
You can believe it on faith in your "Naturaopathic Holistic Balanced Healing for Women"- type books if you want to, of course, but such a belief is not based upon reason.
Why do you classify it as faith and not reason? Show me that my reasoning is flawed, without adding to the scenerios.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by nator, posted 12-01-2006 4:49 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by nator, posted 12-01-2006 7:43 PM purpledawn has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 152 of 327 (367369)
12-01-2006 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by purpledawn
12-01-2006 5:38 PM


Re: Antibiotics
quote:
Why do you classify it as faith and not reason? Show me that my reasoning is flawed, without adding to the scenerios.
You believe something, despite there being essentially no rational, evidence-based reason to do so.
That's faith, not reason.
You believe that castor oil packs applied to your abdomen are somehow clearing your liver of some supposed, but unconfirmed, excess estrogen, even though there is no evidence to show that castor oil packs can do that.
You ignore the strong evidence that would strongly suggest that there is no way in hell that castor oil packs are able to do what you are using them for, and believe that they are working anyway.
That's faith, not reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by purpledawn, posted 12-01-2006 5:38 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by purpledawn, posted 12-01-2006 9:25 PM nator has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 153 of 327 (367380)
12-01-2006 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by nator
12-01-2006 7:43 PM


Re: Antibiotics
quote:
You ignore the strong evidence that would strongly suggest that there is no way in hell that castor oil packs are able to do what you are using them for, and believe that they are working anyway.
What is that strong evidence that I'm ignoring? (This goes in the other thread, which I haven't forgotten, but I'm trying to find the evidence to put in front of you, but it takes time to reread and it's not at the top of my priority list.)
quote:
You believe something, despite there being essentially no rational, evidence-based reason to do so.
Which something is that? Show me that my reasoning is wrong on something specific. (not the packs, they are the other thread.)

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by nator, posted 12-01-2006 7:43 PM nator has not replied

Meddle
Member (Idle past 1271 days)
Posts: 179
From: Scotland
Joined: 05-08-2006


Message 154 of 327 (367515)
12-02-2006 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by purpledawn
11-29-2006 8:28 PM


Re: Antibiotics
Antibiotics are often necessary for the treatment of serious infections, such as pneumonia bacteraemia or meningitis. They can also be used to manage infection in people with cystic fibrosis or compromised immune systems. There is also prophylactic use to avoid infection, such as following an operation or lab exposure to a pathogen. What alternatives could be used in these circumstances?
The full article on the study you referred to earlier on a link between Candida and an increase in allergies can be found here. I'm not sure how applicable it would be to humans. The mice would have been raised in sterile conditions, so their immune system would be more naive, and there would be less diversity in their microflora, making it easier to be knocked out by the antibiotic.
Yeast, including the opportunistic pathogen Candida albicans, can be found as part of the commensal microflora of most mucosal surfaces of the body, including the gut and upper respiratory tract. Of course long term use of antibiotics (particularly broad-spectrum) will favour yeast growth as they remove competition.
The immune response to Candida albicans is production of interleukin (IL)-10 but not of IL-12 or interferron (IFN) gamma (link). IL-12 and IFN gamma are important in the Th1 immune response which is responsible for killing intracellular pathogens. It is thought that allergies develop when the immune system is skewed towards a Th2 response (a bit more on Th1 and Th2 responses).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by purpledawn, posted 11-29-2006 8:28 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2006 8:53 PM Meddle has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 155 of 327 (367518)
12-02-2006 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Meddle
12-02-2006 7:54 PM


Combination of MD and ND
quote:
Antibiotics are often necessary for the treatment of serious infections, such as pneumonia bacteraemia or meningitis. They can also be used to manage infection in people with cystic fibrosis or compromised immune systems. There is also prophylactic use to avoid infection, such as following an operation or lab exposure to a pathogen. What alternatives could be used in these circumstances?
The biggest point in this thread is that I should be allowed to use MDs when necessary and NDs when necessary. Each has their place.
The MD deals with that which can't be fixed naturally.
The ND deals with that which can be fixed naturally.
Sometimes it is a combination of the two. The MD does the surgery or diagnosis necessary and the ND helps the person with necessary nutrition and therapies that help return the body back to health.
I shouldn't be stuck with one or the other and choosing to heal naturally doesn't mean I've lost all reason.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Meddle, posted 12-02-2006 7:54 PM Meddle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by PaulK, posted 12-03-2006 4:02 AM purpledawn has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 156 of 327 (367524)
12-03-2006 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by purpledawn
12-02-2006 8:53 PM


Re: Combination of MD and ND
The issue is that the ND's so-called "natural" treatments have not been tested for effectiveness or safety to anything like the same extent as the methods of conventionaal medicine. If they have been tested at all.
Now if you are saying that you want the right to waste money on ineffective or even dangerous treatments on the grounds that they are called "natural" or promoted with bullshit ideas about "toxins" then fine. But just remember that is what you are asking for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2006 8:53 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by purpledawn, posted 12-03-2006 11:09 AM PaulK has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 157 of 327 (367547)
12-03-2006 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by PaulK
12-03-2006 4:02 AM


Re: Combination of MD and ND
quote:
he issue is that the ND's so-called "natural" treatments have not been tested for effectiveness or safety to anything like the same extent as the methods of conventional medicine. If they have been tested at all.
What leads you to believe they haven't been tested?
Vitamin E
Dr. Rath, scientific publications
Now I can't speak for "everything", I don't know everything that's out there, but there are many natural methods that have been clinically tested.
Even conventional medicine doesn't always work or work the same for every person. We've wasted money on conventional blood pressure medicine that didn't work.
Misusing conventional medicine can lead to deaths just as misusing natural methods can.
I have to do research on the natural just like the conventional.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by PaulK, posted 12-03-2006 4:02 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by PaulK, posted 12-03-2006 11:15 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 159 by nator, posted 12-03-2006 6:49 PM purpledawn has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 158 of 327 (367548)
12-03-2006 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by purpledawn
12-03-2006 11:09 AM


Re: Combination of MD and ND
quote:
What leads you to believe they haven't been tested?
The lack of any serious testing for your castor oil packs and the harmful effects of ephedra produced here look like good reasons. And Vitamin E is as much or more a part of conventional medicine.
quote:
Misusing conventional medicine can lead to deaths just as misusing natural methods can.
So can using "natural" medicine "correctly" instead of conventional medicine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by purpledawn, posted 12-03-2006 11:09 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by purpledawn, posted 12-04-2006 7:38 AM PaulK has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 159 of 327 (367587)
12-03-2006 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by purpledawn
12-03-2006 11:09 AM


Re: Combination of MD and ND
quote:
I have to do research on the natural just like the conventional.
To compare the quality of information available on conventional medicine with that which is proffered for "natural" drugs as anything even remotely similar is ridiculous.
Look, PD, from what I have read over the years, most of the claims of the "natural" people are unsupported quackery. They are in it for the astonishing profits they can get from exploiting the scientific ignorance and emotional vulnerability of people who are intimidated and frustrated by the often impersonal and perfunctory "bedside manner" of conventional medical professionals.
Add to that the enormous loopholes in government regulation that allows herbal drugs to be sold untested for safety and efficacy, and the incredibly strong lobbying efforts by the people who profit from this loophole, and I think it's clear that they are interested in money ONLY.
But most of all, the fact that you believe what you do about the castor oil packs undeniably means that you have lost your bullshit detector.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by purpledawn, posted 12-03-2006 11:09 AM purpledawn has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 160 of 327 (367627)
12-04-2006 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by PaulK
12-03-2006 11:15 AM


Re: Combination of MD and ND
quote:
The lack of any serious testing for your castor oil packs and the harmful effects of ephedra produced here look like good reasons. And Vitamin E is as much or more a part of conventional medicine.
But there isn't a lack of serious testing. I guess it depends on what you call serious.
William A McGarey, M.D. tested castor oil packs for 30 years in his practice. "The Oil That Heals, A Physician's Successes With CAstor Oil Treatments, by William A. McGarey, M.D."
From our own research at the A.R.E. Clinic, the major findings included: (1) total lymphocyte count increased significalty in the group using castor oil packs;...
Because Ephedra was misused doesn't negate it's correct medicinal use.
Anabolic Steroids have therapeutic uses and is safe for human use, but causes problems when abused. This is FDA approved also and I assume went through the serious testing you mention.
As I've said before, I do advocate that there be a standard for licensing NDs to make sure they are trained in Chinese Herbal Medicine and other herbal remedies.
We are going through a change in the way we deal with healing and it takes time to get all the ducks in a row, just like it took time for allopathy to get to where it is today.
As with any system there are people who take advantage of loop holes to make money. Nothing new there. As those holes are found they are dealt with.
quote:
So can using "natural" medicine "correctly" instead of conventional medicine.
So can using conventional medicine correctly instead of natural medicine.
Medicine is not an exact science. A doctor can follow all the right procedures and still lose the patient. We are not identical machines. There are many variables.
We need to be able to look at both sides of an ailment. A combination of the two can be beneficial.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by PaulK, posted 12-03-2006 11:15 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by PaulK, posted 12-04-2006 8:01 AM purpledawn has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 161 of 327 (367629)
12-04-2006 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by purpledawn
12-04-2006 7:38 AM


Re: Combination of MD and ND
quote:
William A McGarey, M.D. tested castor oil packs for 30 years in his practice. "The Oil That Heals, A Physician's Successes With CAstor Oil Treatments, by William A. McGarey, M.D."
So a book published by the origanisation that sells a quack treatment claims that it works ? Or are these serious tests, with independant oversight and replication ? If so, please provide details.
TOn doing some of my own research I find an association with Edgar Cayce - hardly reassuring. Have a look at This. Having failed to find that castor oil from the packs actually gets into the body they quote McGarey:
Another possibility noted by McGarey is that castor oil is assimilated into the system vibratorially. Pondering the idea that everything is composed of constantly moving subatomic particles, McGarey asserts that, "All substances, then, whether they be living or not, give off vibrations . Is it really vibration, then, that carries the healing nature of castor oil into the body .?" (McGarey, 1993, p. 30).
Need I comment that this sounds like typical quackery ?
And there this page on quackwatch looks relevant.
quote:
Because Ephedra was misused doesn't negate it's correct medicinal use.
You mean just because it has serious side-effects that the sellers of "natural" medicines apparently didn't know about. Remember it was intentionally sold to be "misused". And it provides a needed reminder that herbal medicines are not intrinsically safe and may have dangerous - or even fatal side-effects.
Conventional medicine for all it's flaws is far more rigourously tested and far less prone to quackery than any "alternative" medicine. Remember that the "natural" madicines" that work, work in the same way as conventional medicines.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by purpledawn, posted 12-04-2006 7:38 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by purpledawn, posted 12-04-2006 1:01 PM PaulK has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 162 of 327 (367659)
12-04-2006 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by PaulK
12-04-2006 8:01 AM


Re: Combination of MD and ND
quote:
Conventional medicine for all it's flaws is far more rigourously tested and far less prone to quackery than any "alternative" medicine.
Even in its infancy?
Alternative medicine is trying to find a legitmate foothold. All of it is not quackery.
So McGarey doesn't have a good explanation as to why castor oil packs worked on his patients. One test shows it isn't wasted from the body the same as when taken internally. Move on to the next test. In Message 160 I gave the quotes on another test concerning lymphocyte counts. There was a difference in the groups, so the pack is making an impact on the body.
In 30 years of observation, he has used the packs for various illnesses and injuries over and over again. The packs worked. He is a medical doctor fully aware of conventional methods. He supposedly used both in his practice. Conventional being the primary it seems. He's written books and articles. I think there has been ample time for someone to prove him wrong. Have you found anything that has been done to prove his observations wrong?
So if it works and heals toenail fungus, it is safer than the oral medicine.
Castor oil has been around a very long time. I haven't found anything that says external use is unsafe, have you?
Just because we don't understand the healing properties, doesn't mean it doesn't work. It may be a while before we figure it out.
Chicken soup still holds mystery.
we think chicken soup may in fact reduce the symptoms of a stuffy nose from a cold,...Exactly what components in the chicken soup might be responsible remains a mystery.
Many natural remedies have already had a very long successful run of being used by people, but we need practioners who understand their proper use and that will take time.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by PaulK, posted 12-04-2006 8:01 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by PaulK, posted 12-04-2006 1:42 PM purpledawn has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 163 of 327 (367665)
12-04-2006 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by purpledawn
12-04-2006 1:01 PM


Re: Combination of MD and ND
quote:
Even in its infancy?
If you're talking about ancient medicine it's hardly relevant. If you're talking about new treatments they aren't allowed in general use without testing.
quote:
So McGarey doesn't have a good explanation as to why castor oil packs worked on his patients.
It isn't that he doesn't have a good explanation, it's that he offers BAD "explanations". That's a hallmark of quackery. So is the wide range of conditions that the packs are supposed to treat.
quote:
Move on to the next test. In Message 160 I gave the quotes on another test concerning lymphocyte counts.
THat would be the test I asked for more details on - that you haven't given. The test carried out by Cayce-believers on one of Cayce's "treatments" - which they make money from promoting. Can you understand why I'm more than a little skeptical of this test ?
quote:
I think there has been ample time for someone to prove him wrong.
Exactly who would fund this work ? And why ? Come on, there's a reason why the drug companies have to fork out for their own testing. I'll suggest that if there are no reports of independant tests it's either because it's so unpromising that nobody is interested in trying it or because it was tried and got negative results.
Come on, the hallmarks of quackery are all over it. Or is that information you DON'T want ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by purpledawn, posted 12-04-2006 1:01 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Wounded King, posted 12-04-2006 3:27 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 166 by purpledawn, posted 12-04-2006 3:55 PM PaulK has replied

Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 164 of 327 (367687)
12-04-2006 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by PaulK
12-04-2006 1:42 PM


Re: Combination of MD and ND
I could suggest a possible reaon why castor oil could lead to an increase in T-cell count. A very low level of ricin contamination during the production process.
Ricin is massively toxic in even moderate quantities but research suggests that even minute quantities can evoke a proliferative response in the t-cells, possibly even down to the picogram level.
I know that the extraction process seperates the Ricin from the oil but there still seem to be some potential for a trace level of contamination.
The main other problem with this is how the ricin would cross tansdermally, since it isn't fat soluble, I suppose if it was small enough it could be trafficked by something like a liposome.
Totally made up explanation, all my own fault, shoot me now.
This is what happens when addressing things outside one's area of expertise.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by PaulK, posted 12-04-2006 1:42 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by PaulK, posted 12-04-2006 3:32 PM Wounded King has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 165 of 327 (367689)
12-04-2006 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Wounded King
12-04-2006 3:27 PM


Re: Combination of MD and ND
Maybe if they were taking it orally it could happen. But given that the oil itself doesn't make it through the skin in any significant amount I have to say I don't think it likely that the ricin does either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Wounded King, posted 12-04-2006 3:27 PM Wounded King has not replied

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