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Author | Topic: Childhood Vaccinations – Necessary or Overkill? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Again, where's the risk factor? Castor oil is inexpensive. It isn't worth the expense to test at the level you're wanting. If I use it on a fungal toenail and it works, it is safer and cheaper than the oral medication. Again, I don't care to throw the baby out with the bath water. So Cayce was a bit odd. They documented some good results. A.R.E. has the results not me. Just because I think a few of their ideas may work and give them a try, doesn't mean I buy into all they are presenting. I do my own testing. If it works, then it works. This is not an all or nothing deal. I can glean little pieces here and there that benefit my health. It doesn't mean I've lost all reason because one of their ideas may have some merit. When an MD doesn't have a solution, I have to find other information to figure out the problem. I'm not a company, I'm a consumer. I can only do what is best for me. I can't wait for someone to decide to test something as simple as castor oil or chicken soup to suit the scientific or academic world. Home remedies have been around a long time and some still work. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
So what you're saying is that it doesn't matter if what they are claiming is true. We should just beleive it anyway. Did you want information, o did you want assuracnes that are probably false ?
They say they've done a test but you can't turn up anything on the methodology or any sign of independant oversight or replication. So how do you know that the test is any good ? Look, I'm giving you real information - that the signs of quackery are all over the claims about castor oil packs. Unadulterated "woo" on the supposed mechanism - because there's nothing even remotely plausible for some of the claims. A whole laundry list of unrelated ailments it is supposed to be good for. Why insist that these people have annything going for them when even a mildly skeptical eye should be able to see that they're full offit ?
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
PD writes: I'm not a company, I'm a consumer. I can only do what is best for me. I can't wait for someone to decide to test something as simple as castor oil or chicken soup to suit the scientific or academic world. Home remedies have been around a long time and some still work. Good point, PD. Not only that but if it's not a money maker few studies get done. When natural remedies work, folks talk and lend advice to friends et al. Occasionally open minded MD's who become amazed at some of the results of patients who resort to some of these remedies become interested and begin to incorporate some of this into their practice. I've come to find that often health food store employes or managers know a lot about what works by the demand for certain effective products and testimonies of customers as to the effectiveness of them. My wife and I occasionally question these store folks when we have a health related question and have consequently discovered some products that we have found to be effective. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: What we've also seen is that if it is a money maker, few, if any studies get done. The companies don't have to show that their drugs are safe and effective, so they don't, naturally, becasue testing them for safety and efficacy is expensive. Tell me buz, what makes you believe that herbal drugs have no or fewer side effects, interactions with food or with other drugs, problems with long-term use compared to synthetic drugs, or that purity and dosages and potentcy among and between brands are consistent?
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: A fungal toenail and excess estrogen in the liver are entirely different conditions, PD. That castor oil is supposed to be able to take excess estrogen stored in one's liver out of one's body by way of soaking through the skin directly to the liver is simply a preposterous claim.
quote: Um, exactly how do you know that they documented good results if you aren't able to actually look at the results? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
If you want to look at the medical plausibility of it, then go to the castor oil thread and explain to me why it is preposterous.
Unfortunately I made my comments that I meant to put in that thread over here earlier to PaulK I think. I would like to look at the feasibility of some of the internal claims concerning the cator oil packs, but not if all you're going to do is say it is ridiculous. That doesn't show me anything. So if you really want to look at it, then go to that thread and we can work through it there.(If I can get in anyway. ) "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:No that's not what I'm saying. My first readings about castor oil packs has nothing to do with that site. So my actions are not based on them. quote: What real information have you given me? If you really want to look at the validity of the internal claims concerning the castor oil packs, then go to the castor oil thread and explain why you don't feel a specific claim is possible. I would like to discuss the possibilities of the castor oil packs, but just telling me a site is quackery doesn't amount to real information. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Schraf writes: Tell me buz, what makes you believe that herbal drugs have no or fewer side effects, interactions with food or with other drugs, problems with long-term use compared to synthetic drugs, or that purity and dosages and potentcy among and between brands are consistent? Most berbals are not regarded as drugs by anyone, including the FDA. Most are simple foods in their natural composition and properties. A few are regarded as needing care in usage in certain situations. How often do you hear of anyone dying or being seriously affected by herbals? Extremely rare. On the other hand, thousands of folks die and are seriously affected with prescription drugs. Not only that, but before most dangerous ones are removed, many have died or suffered ill effects from them. Edited by Buzsaw, : Edit message title BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3978 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 7.3 |
Buz writes: Most berbals are not regarded as drugs by anyone, including the FDA. Most are simple foods in their natural composition and properties. A few are regarded as needing care in usage in certain situations. How often do you hear of anyone dying or being seriously affected by herbals? Extremely rare. On the other hand, thousands of folks die and are seriously affected with prescription drugs. Not only that, but before most dangerous ones are removed, many have died or suffered ill effects from them. Preach on, Brother Buz. I've been trying for decades to persuade the law that my herbs are not drugs, to no avail. I welcome your support. Drinking when we are not thirsty and making love at any time, madam, is all that distinguishes us from the other animals. -Pierre De Beaumarchais (1732-1799)
Save lives! Click here!Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC! ---------------------------------------
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: But they are most definitely drugs, buz, and are promoted by the sellers as remedies (although slyly) regardless of how the government defines them. All have chemical compounds (many unknown) that are intended to produce a theraputic effect. That's the definition of a drug, and that's why you use them. If you didn't think that various herbs had theraputic effects on nasal congestion, or the flu, or fever, or pain, or whatever, you wouldn't take them, right? And about the FDA? It's been mentioned at least a dozen times in this thread, and by me in several direct replies to you, that the law that was passed that classifies all herbal drugs as "nutritional supplements" was lobbied heavily for in Washington by the manufacturers and retailers of these herbal drugs so they could continue to avoid having to test them for safety and efficacy. They contine to make a lot more money if they don't have to do that.
quote: No, buz, many herbal drugs sold as remedies or preventatives are not "foods". Goldenseal, Black Cohosh, Ginseng, Echinacia, Arnica, Mallow, Comfrey, Ephedra, Dogwood, and hundreds of other herbal drugs are not anything even close to "simple foods".
quote: That's due to several reasons, although they are perhaps less rare than you realize. How hard have you looked for such reports? 1) Far fewer people take specific herbal cures than take synthetic drugs. 2) Many herbal cures probably have no theraputic value whatsoever, so they have no negative, nor any positive, effects. There are plenty of cases, however, of people dying because they refused conventional treatment in favor of some quack "natural" treatment that promised miracles.
quote: But what are the percentages, buz? Billions and billions of people take synthetic drugs every year. When some people have adverse effects for a given drug, what you need to look at is not actual numbers, but the percentage of people who die against the number of people who took the drug. It's funny that you quoted my question but then proceeded to not answer the very specific questions containe within it! So, I will ask it again: Tell me buz, what makes you believe that herbal drugs have no or fewer side effects, interactions with food or with other drugs, problems with long-term use compared to synthetic drugs, or that purity and dosages and potentcy among and between brands are consistent? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
If you want information then why you disreafrd the information I give you ?
quote: THe information listed directly after the partial setence you quoted. If you're not prepared too even admit that those facts exist then you only prove that my interpretation is right. You don't want to know that it's quackery. If you really cared about information you would go looking for the details of this supposed test. Instead of just insisting that it must be valid because a quack reports it. And there doesn't seem to be anythign to discuss about the merits of castor oil packs. A quack says that they can do alll sorts of things. THat doesn't mean that they have any valid medical use whatsoever.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: PD, there is a list of questions in the OP of the castor oil thread that does exactly that. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Schrafinator writes: No, buz, many herbal drugs sold as remedies or preventatives are not "foods". Goldenseal, Black Cohosh, Ginseng, Echinacia, Arnica, Mallow, Comfrey, Ephedra, Dogwood, and hundreds of other herbal drugs are not anything even close to "simple foods". I've taken all of these herbs for many years with absolutely no side effects except good ones. For example, I have a small patch of comphrey in one of my three gardens from which we regularly take leaves and use for such things as tea (very healing to ulcers or inner inflamation of any kind), as poltices for infections et al. Comphrey coats internal sores with a healing film. I know the FDA took comphrey off the market, but so far as I have found there have been no deaths or serious problems with comphrey. Imo, if the FDA were 1/100th as concerned about the dangers of many prescription drugs as they were when they took comphrey off the market, we'd all be a lot safer. LOL! The FDA is in bed with the powerful pharmaceuticals.
Schraf writes: If you didn't think that various herbs had theraputic effects on nasal congestion, or the flu, or fever, or pain, or whatever, you wouldn't take them, right? For flu, fever, pain or whatever, we use herbal food along with other beneficial foods to (1)prevent these ailments in the first place and (2) as remedies for ailments. For example, green salads are nothing but a combination of herbals. This eve on our marinated Italian vegie salad at the supper table was herbals like radish, cilantro (leafy) cucumber, cabbage, summer squash, onion, pepper, carrot et al. We sprinkle alfalfa sprouts sprouted in the kitchen on salads often as well as parsley. These are all herbals, not drugs. Prescription drugs are mandated prescribed for the sole reason that they are not safe to use as are the herbals available in grocery stores and health store. They are powerful concentrated chemicals and compounds often derived from herbal plants or a chemical/plant combination et al.
Schraf writes: There are plenty of cases, however, of people dying because they refused conventional treatment in favor of some quack "natural" treatment that promised miracles. .....And many thousands of cases of people dying because they used these powerful and more dangerous drugs, some of which accumulate in the system to cause big problems down the line.
Schraf writes: But what are the percentages, buz? Billions and billions of people take synthetic drugs every year. When some people have adverse effects for a given drug, what you need to look at is not actual numbers, but the percentage of people who die against the number of people who took the drug. It's funny that you quoted my question but then proceeded to not answer the very specific questions containe within it! So, I will ask it again: Tell me buz, what makes you believe that herbal drugs have no or fewer side effects, interactions with food or with other drugs, problems with long-term use compared to synthetic drugs, or that purity and dosages and potentcy among and between brands are consistent? I don't know the percentages. Do you? All I can say is that from my own experience and from numerous testimonials from others who've went the alternative route, it's my friends, relatives and acquantances who are on the prescriptions who are the sick, the infirmed and the overall unhealthy folks compared to the herbal and alternative health folks who are the healthy ones. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So, you use comfrey and all those other items because you believe they have active chemical compounds which produce a theraputic effect, right? That means you take them as drugs. They are not food.
quote: source The use of comfrey in dietary supplements is a serious concern to FDA. These plants contain pyrrolizidine alkaloids, substances which are firmly established to be hepatotoxins in animals. Reports in the scientific literature clearly associate oral exposure of comfrey and pyrrolizidine alkaloids with the occurrence of veno-occlusive disease (VOD) in animals. Moreover, outbreaks of hepatic VOD have been reported in other countries over the years and the toxicity of these substances in humans is generally accepted. The use of products containing comfrey has also been implicated in serious adverse incidents over the years in the United States and elsewhere. However, while information is generally lacking to establish a cause-effect relationship between comfrey ingestion and observed adverse effects humans, the adverse effects that have been seen are entirely consistent with the known effects of comfrey ingestion that have been described in the scientific literature. The pyrrolizidine alkaloids that are present in comfrey, in addition to being potent hepatotoxins, have also been shown to be toxic to other tissues as well. There is also evidence that implicates these substances as carcinogens. Taken together, the clear evidence of an association between oral exposure to pyrrolizidine alkaloids and serious adverse health effects and the lack of any valid scientific data that would enable the agency to determine whether there is an exposure, if any, that would present no harm to consumers, indicates that this substance should not be used as an ingredient in dietary supplements. I did a google search on the term "pyrrolizidine alkaloids" and the second link was the following report from a man who is the director of a natural medicine center in Oregon.
source An excerpt of the report:
Case 1 (11): A 49-year-old woman in the U.S. was admitted to a hospital with progressive swelling of the abdomen and extremities over the preceding four months. Veno-occlusive disease was eventually diagnosed, allegedly caused by chronic exposure to PAs consumed in a comfrey powder, estimated at a minimum of 85 mg of PAs per day over the previous six-month period. She was a heavy consumer of herbs, vitamins and natural food supplements, and she drank three cups of chamomile tea per week and for the six months before admission had consumed one quart a day of a herbal tea known as Mu-16. In addition, for the 4 months before admission, she had taken two capsules of "comfey-pepsin pills" with each meal. The authors conclude "To our knowledge, this is the first report of veno-occlusive disease in any human after the use of a preparation claiming to be made from comfrey." Case 2 (12): A 13-year-old boy in England was admitted to a hospital with symptoms that were found to be caused by veno-occlusive disease. He had been suffering from Crohn's disease for three years and had been treated with prednisolone and sulphasalazine, which removed symptoms. At his parents' request, the drugs were discontinued and he was treated with acupuncture and comfrey root prescribed by a naturopath. Exact quantities and frequency are unknown. When admitted to the hospital he was taking prednisolone and sulphasalazine. The authors concluded that "the only possible causal factor in this patient was comfrey." Case 3 (13): A 47-year-old white non-alcoholic woman in the U.S. began to feel unwell in 1978 with vague abdominal pain, fatigue and allergies. A homeopathic doctor recommended comfrey tea. She consumed as many as ten cups per day in addition to taking comfrey pills by the handful, which continued for more than one year. Four years later, serum aminotransferase levels were twice the upper limit of the normal range, and four years after that she had further signs of liver disease. Case 4 (14): A 23-year-old man in New Zealand presented with veno-occlusive disease and severe portal hypertension and subsequently died from liver failure. He had eaten comfrey leaves for some time before his illness. The man presented with a three-month history of initial influenza-like symptoms followed by continued malaise and night sweats. Three weeks before admission he noticed peripheral edema and abdominal distension. For four years prior to this illness he had been living in a commune and had eaten a predominantly vegetarian diet. He had a striking binge-type eating pattern whereby he would eat large quantities of a particular food for days and weeks on end. In the one to two weeks before the onset of symptoms he ate four to five steamed young comfrey leaves as a vegetable every day. The authors suggest that the patient's protein deficient diet could have played a contributory role; they attributed comfrey as a possible cause due to the temporal sequence of events. In a separate review of potential risk to consuming comfrey published in the Australian Medical Journal (15), the author declined to consider this case in his report because "there is some controversy surrounding this case." I guess you haven't looked very hard at the problems with comfrey, buz.
quote: No, salad greens are nutritive foods. They contain mainly vitamins, minerals, fiber, water and calories. Some contain other substances known to have preventative effects. Herbal drugs, by contrast, are not ingested for their nutritive values, only for the chemicals they contain that are intended to be theraputic.
quote: They are all foods, not drugs. Comfrey, for example, is not a food. It is a drug.
quote: Why do you keep insisting that herbals are safe, buz? They have not been tested in any sort of controlled manner, so you have no idea if they are safe for long (or short) term use, to combine with any other chemicals, or if they even work at all.
quote: Another way to describe them is carefully formulated to be pure, extensively tested to discover their benefits and side effects, and regulated by law to be consistent within and between brands.
Tell me buz, what makes you believe that herbal drugs have no or fewer side effects, interactions with food or with other drugs, problems with long-term use compared to synthetic drugs, or that purity and dosages and potentcy among and between brands are consistent? quote: Oh, and confirmation bias isn't affecting you. No, of course not. You highly biased, miniscule, sample of anecdotal evidence means absolutely nothing, buz. I have real, carefully conducted scientific experiments to back up my side of the argument, buz, and all you have is the say so of some of your friends and relatives. Why don't you come right out and admit that you believe what you do about herbal drugs on faith, religiously, and that you don't care about evidence that contradicts your religious faith? That's why you won't even attempt to answer my very specific, yet entirely valid and fundamental questions. What verifiable evidence leads you to conclude that herbal drugs have no or fewer side effects than prescription drugs? What verifiable evidence leads you to conclude that herbal drugs do not have interactions with foods or with other drugs? What verifiable evidence leads you to conclude that herbal drugs do do not have problems with long-term use compared to synthetic drugs? What evidence leads you to conclude that anybody knows the appropriate dosage of any herbal drug? What verifiable evidence leads you to conclude that purity and dosages and potentcy among and between brands of herbal drugsare consistent? "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool."- Richard Feynman "Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"- Ned Flanders
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Schraf writes: That means you take them as drugs. They are not food. It is so food. Tea is food. Comphrey is in my garden along with the other herbals such as parsley, spinach, et al. I eat parsley and celery also for health along with Comphrey tea. I also mix comphrey in green tea. That one eats/drinks certain foods for health doesn't make these herbal foods drugs. I suppose by your token, that some folks eat take chicken soup when they have a cold makes chicken soup a drug. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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