Problems with the Big Bang theory

You pose an excellent question, ramoss. It most certainly could happen that way, excluding a divine creation. Although I have to chuckle at your comment on that including the term "complications". Considering the fact that the other options are very scientific and physically complicated. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. IF, the conditions were always there, then we are back to the age of the universe dilemma. Always there means always there. This means the didn't have a beginning. Which is fine by me, but try putting that one past these people that say the universe had a starting date.

Why not, if it seems to be mistaken? Why should religion have a privileged place in the world of ideas?

There you go using "never" again. But hey, all that aside. I will read your PDF later. I don't have the time right now. The estimates of the age of the universe have been getting bigger and bigger since I was in school. That's all I can say.

WOW!! You need help. Who are you to say that someone's faith is mistaken. You should be banned from these discussions with that kind of comment

Then you would be incorrect, because they have in fact lowered over the last fifty years. That is because that estimate never occured or was confined to such a small group of people that it was never recorded, making it functionally never. More importantly it never got to the point where it was tested or even considered in a paper which is a much stronger functional never.

I have faith that you do not exist. Mistaken? Maybe. Don't you dare criticise it though...Surely OT though.

Don't worry I won't waste my time

I agree that it isn't cool to attack someone's faith, unless someone is using faith-based arguments in support of scientific positions. After tracking back a few messages I don't think that's the case here. You didn't appear to be saying that something can't come from nothing because of some faith-based belief.I think the questioning of faith started because it *is* seemingly contradictory to believe that something can't come from nothing on the one hand, but to believe that God can make something come from nothing on the other. And there are, of course, a large number of related arguments. But this particular line of discussion doesn't seem on-topic to me.--Percy

Could you open a new thread and explain why you believe this to be the case? I can't concieve of a reason why someone's faith should be off-limits from discussion.

it was god. If god always existed, that means that he did not 'come from' something. Which is the same as saying he did come from nothing.You also said that if the universe always existed then we couldn't know its age. In a way that is true because we don't know how long it existed as a singularity but we can say that some amount of time has passed since is was a singularity. That's what is being described as is 'age'.

And you fail to answer the question. There are many possibilities, you choose one that is rather arbitrary and self-referential. If that is your goal then fine, and enjoy it. No just pointing out the logical problems with your position. I also see no LACK of christians attacking the faith of other people.And I ask again: ever going to finish answering the probability issue?Or can I assume from you lack of answer that this is resolved and the probability calculations promoted by creationists and IDologist are as bogus and irrelevant and intellectually dishonest as claimed on the thread?Thanks again.Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : added comment

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DivineBeginningThat is not an answer,DB that is special pleading. You exempt God from the very condiytion you demand of the Big Bang and thus are hand waving away the difficulty this presents

you are right, it does seem a bit off topic to me too. Mostly because everytime I question science I get all kinds of flack about my faith. Even if I mention nothing about faith, or God. Are arguments against science inherently for God? I didn't think so, but apparently to a lot of these people it is.

Because I'm not the one that brought up my faith that's why. It's off topic, besides.

You must be rather special then, eh? Since you seem to be able to understand it quite well.J0N