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Author Topic:   A question about evolution
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
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Message 31 of 50 (364396)
11-17-2006 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Hyroglyphx
11-16-2006 5:07 PM


Re: Unclear Question
... What abut the merging of two populations? <-- questions
A sub-specie. Think of what you would produce if you crossed a Calico and a Tabby. Would you get a new specie? No.
Seeing as you are starting within one species to begin with why do you think interbreeding would necessarily produce new species?
That is not what the theory of evolution says. It is only when the two sub-species mix and then fail to interbreed that speciation has occurred.
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 32 of 50 (364399)
11-17-2006 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by kalimero
11-16-2006 2:35 PM


Answer: Yes. "Before migration the frequency of allele a was 100%, after migration it was 90%, therefore evolution happened. The storm was not an evolutionary process and therefore did not change the allele frequency."
The storm is a straw man in the question as posed. Break it down into three parts (1) Before migration, population is 100% aa, (2) After migration and before storm, population is 90% aa and 10% bb, (3) After migration AND after storm, population is 90% aa and 10% bb.
The migration did change the frequency of alleles -- IN the specific population in question. However both populations existed before: thus in a larger context evolution did NOT occur. The population can only be said to change if there were no continued communication between populations in the specific area and other surrounding ones.
The storm did not change the frequency of alleles in the specific population in question.If there had been a change then natural selection in favor of one allele over the other would have occurred - and then it would qualify as well.
I don't understand how the mere movement of different alleles is an evolutionary process.
In the larger context it isn't. Only when movement is generally prevented or restricted can it influence specific populations. This is where population dynamics come into play - when populations choose not to intermix due to a number of factors.
I agree with Crash that the "original population" must be a species definition population for the question to make any sense, in which case no evolution occurred, there was just a movement within the total population of where the aa and bb alleles occurred, not a change in proportions.
If we are talking about a variety population then the answer is still no, because there was no change within the aa variety population or the bb variety population, other than loss in numbers due to the storm - there was no interbreeding within the context of the question.
I'd be interested in what your professor says to these criticisms.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by kalimero, posted 11-16-2006 2:35 PM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by kalimero, posted 11-18-2006 9:31 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 33 of 50 (364401)
11-17-2006 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Hyroglyphx
11-16-2006 4:49 PM


beneficial vs detrimental
... That would indicate that they cannot even change on the species level. Aside from which, evidence of beneficial mutations are so rare, and have yielded almost nothing in the realm of evidence,...
Speciation has been observed, so obviously changes can occur on the species level.
Whether they are rare or not is immaterial as long as they exist, as natural selection will filter the results.
Natural selection is the driving element of change, mutation just provides the resources for natural selection to act on.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 35 of 50 (364446)
11-17-2006 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by New Cat's Eye
11-17-2006 4:04 PM


Why does you example talk of two different species when exemplifying two populations of the same species? I can never become a part of the ant population but it is possible for the new individuals to flow genes with the old ones.
I'm reading a book, an old book - "The Forest and The Sea" by Marston Bates (Random House 1960) - and in it he describes his early research into malaria and mosquito's (although the book is more generally about ecology in layman terms). He does this to exemplify the problems with the concept of species (starting on page 133 near the bottom):
quote:
One case that I worked on for several years involved a group of anopheline mosquitos of southern Europe. The chief vector of malaria in that region was thought to be a mosquito called Anopheles maculipennis. Wherever there was malaria, this mosquito was found. But in some places where the mosquito was extremely abundant, there was no malaria, which led to intensive study of this phenomenon of "anophelism without malaria."
It was early thought that there might be two "biological races" of the mosquito: one, for some reason, capable of transmitting malaria, and the other not, and a search was started for means by which these "races" might be recognized. It was presently discovered that, even though the mosquitos looked the same everywhere, different "varieties" could be destinguished by microscopic examination of the pattern of spots on the eggs. By breeding mosquitos of known egg type in the laboratory, it was possible to make comparative studies of different aspects of their behavior.
...
It turned out that the mosquito "species," Anopheles maculipennis, realy consisted of seven independent populations which differed from each other in many fundamental respects - but which happened to look alike as adult mosquitoes. The different populations had different biting habits - only those kinds that liked to bite man could transmit malaria.
...
These mosquitoes differed from each other in all sorts of ways. The larvae had different habitats: two of the populations were found mostly near the coast, where the larvae lived in brackish water. Another was found only in the vicinitiy of inland marshes, or breeding in thick reeds of lake margins. Another preferred to breed in small ponds and stagnant ditches.
But most strikingly, each had characteristic mating habits. ... In nature, sexually excited male mosquitoes gather in dancing swarms, to which females are attracted. ... In short, each of these mosquito populations had a different kind of sexual behavior, which would keep them from cross-mating in nature. ... Each of these kinds of mosquitoes was a reproductively isolated population, a species. ... The adults all looked alike to an entomologist, but the mosquitoes could tell each other apart easily enough - and this, from the biological point of view, was the important thing.
Thus there were seven populations with distinct alleles - aa, bb, cc, dd, ee, ff and gg - and their overlapping in areas did not constitute evolution by changing the proportions of alleles in the "original" population.
They had already speciated.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : typo

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 37 of 50 (364623)
11-18-2006 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by kalimero
11-18-2006 9:31 AM


2) They must be together for awhile (geographic isolation --> different populations).
I have two problems with this: (1) is that, as presented the bb population just got there and had not had time to interbreed -- therefore "for awhile" does not readily apply, they weren't there long enough, and (2) the bb population could just as easily be a migratory variation to a non-migratory aa population -- they could pass through every year on their migratory route, but still never interbreed because they aren't there during breeding season, whether they could "potentially interbreed and give fertile offspring" or not.
There are behavior barriers to mating that prevent interbreeding even if it is possible. The best example of this is the "ring species" the asian greenish warbler:
Greenish warblers
quote:
Greenish warblers (Phylloscopus trochiloides) inhabit forests across much of northern and central Asia. In central Siberia, two distinct forms of greenish warbler coexist without interbreeding, and therefore these forms can be considered distinct species. The two forms are connected by a long chain of populations encircling the Tibetan Plateau to the south, and traits change gradually through this ring of populations. There is no place where there is an obvious species boundary along the southern side of the ring. Hence the two distinct 'species' in Siberia are apparently connected by gene flow. By studying geographic variation in the ring of populations, we can study how speciation has occurred. This unusual situation has been termed a 'circular overlap' or 'ring species'.
Each variation breeds with the neighboring one except at the northern overlap in Siberia where the viridanus and plumbeitarsus varieties ignore each other.
quote:
It is relatively easy to hear the song differences in the field, and playback experiments have shown that the birds distinguish between types of songs. A male greenish warbler will aggressively respond to songs that it recognizes as belonging to its own species, intending to chase an intruding male out of its territory, but it usually will not respond to song from a distantly related population. Females probably also use the song differences to distinguish among potential mates.
Different behavior affecting breeding.
The alleles in the area of overlap between viridanus and plumbeitarsus are in different proportions than in the rest of the habitat for each subspecies , but they are not interbreeding so it doesn't matter.
Forget the storm - It was just an obvious diversion for those students who didn't do their homework.
Agreed. BUT if one variety had survived more than the other then it would have been natural selection changing the frequency of alleles in the combined population (if we agree that they now make one population, otherwise it is just survival preference for one population over another).
BTW: How would you define a population that "breeds" asexually.
A very good question.
What makes a sexually breeding population 'special' is the population dynamics of gene flow between individuals within a species. This can act to hold a species in stasis where it is adequately adapted to its habitat to survive, as sexual pressure can tend to direct the population as a whole towards an average.
In asexual populations the gene flow is only in one direction, and as each individual organism picks up mutations those will only be passed to their offspring. It very well could be that what we see as single cell "species" are the remains when interconnecting variations have been removed by natural selection.
Genetics can measure the DNA and see how closely related populations are, behavioral and ecological studies can show how they have same reactions to chemicals and habitat, but this may only be an artifact of removal of intermediates to other single cell species.
Certainly such populations are isolated from other similar ones -- in many cases (but not all).
I did a google and found:
(1) http://members.aol.com/darwinpage/mayrspecies.htm
quote:
There are a number of suggestions of how species taxa in asexual organisms can be delimited and defined, but this is outside the present discussion. However, I find that any endeavor to propose a species definition that is equally applicable to both sexually reproducing and asexual populations misses the basic characteristics of the biological species definition (the protection of harmonious gene pools).
He also talks about other definitions of species that are more historical, but which would have been in effect when asexual species were first type cast.
(2) Observed Instances of Speciation
quote:
4.2 Cases Where the Biological Species Concept Does Not Apply
There is no unambiguous criterion for determining that a speciation event has occurred in those cases where the BSC does not apply. This is especially true for obligately asexual organisms. Usually phenetic (e.g. phenotypic and genetic) differences between populations are used to justify a claim of speciation. A few caveats are germane to this. It is not obvious how much change is necessary to claim that a population has speciated. In my humble opinion, the difference between the "new species" and its "ancestor" should be at least as great as the differences among recognized species in the group (i.e. genus, family) involved. The investigator should show that the change is persistent. Finally, many organisms have life cycles/life histories that involve alternative morphologies and/or an ability to adjust their phenotypes in response to short term changes in ecological conditions. The investigator should be sure to rule these things out before claiming that a phenetic change constitutes a speciation event.
That seems fairly reasonable. This would be the same kind of difference that is used in paleontology to seperate fossils into different species over time when there is no way to see if {organism 1 million years ago} can breed with {organism 5 million years ago}.
(3) http://www.msu.edu/course/plb/418/speciesconcepts.htm
quote:
Diagnosability Species Concept
The smallest aggregation of populations (sexual) or lineages (asexual) diagnosable by a unique combination of character states in comparable individuals.
Genealogical Species Concept
Species are defined by basal exclusivity; individuals of a species are more closely related to one another than to any individuals outside the group.
Reasons there is little agreement on species concepts
  • Variation is complex
  • Breeding systems are variable
  • Levels of gene flow is variable
  • Speciation is ongoing so all stage are present in the environment
  • Relative to the number of species in the environment we know too little to generalize

This is the only one they list for asexual (they also list BSC - biological species concept - and some others)
(4) Birky Lab Home
quote:
Theory and some experimental evidence suggests that the loss of sexual reproduction should reduce the effectiveness natural selection. Asexual lineages should accumulate detrimental mutations, leading to extinction. They should also have difficulty retaining and fixing advantageous mutations, which would make it difficult to adapt to new environments and speciate. In fact the definition of species in asexual organisms is controversial, since the "biological" species definition cannot be applied. We are studying the long-term consequences of the loss of asexual reproduction, and the preliminary results are exciting! The bdelloid rotifers are a widespread group of freshwater invertebrates which have been reproducing asexually for at least 40 million years and undergone substantial differentiation into species differing in morphology, habitat, and behavior.
we used basic population genetic theory to show that asexual organisms, like sexual organisms, should fall into clusters representing independently evolving lineages. We devised a new species concept, the Evolutionary Genetic Species Concept, for asexuals which describes clusters that are comparable to biological species in sexual organisms. We also devised a species criterion, the 4-time rule, that can be used to identify such asexual species from DNA sequences of small samples.
Asexual organisms are also not constrained by the population gene sharing of sexual species so they can have more variation within a population and the only thing holding that in check is survival of those individuals.
From these it looks like asexual species are populations of organisms with similar characteristics that have become isolated by natural selection and time.
This is more of an "amoeba" in time description that what remains after selection over time is a species...
That's the best I've got at this time.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 45 of 50 (367378)
12-01-2006 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by kalimero
11-29-2006 6:22 PM


Re: bump / Re: To all:
I need a specific question to ask.
See Message 37
Do the temporarily temporally coincident groups with aa and bb genes really constitute a "population" if
  • the bb population just got there and had not had time to breed with the aa population -- "for awhile" does not readily apply if they weren't there long enough to breed,
  • the bb population is a migratory variation to a non-migratory aa population -- they pass through every year on their migratory route, but never interbreed because they aren't there during breeding season,
  • there have behavior barriers to mating that prevent interbreeding even if it is possible.
The best example of this last situation is the "ring species" the asian greenish warbler: the two end species do not interbreed even thought they share a habitat and breed with other varieties that complete a ring of breeding.
Greenish warblers

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by kalimero, posted 11-29-2006 6:22 PM kalimero has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 48 of 50 (368309)
12-07-2006 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Modulous
12-03-2006 2:06 PM


Re: bump / Re: To all:
where's the link mod?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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