Rape and evolution

In another thread, Crashfrog is discussing rape with a few members of EvC. His discussion prompted me to think about the sociology of rape and how it would apply in an evolutionary sense.Crashfrog writes: I agree with his sentiments that even "good guys" are capable of heinous crimes against humanity. But I have another question, which is what prompted to split the topic.I've heard some evolutionists attempt to exonerate rape because they see it as a natural part of biology. Now, if we can separate ourselves for a moment from our emotive response for how we view rape, strictly speaking, they are possibly right if evolution is true-- and even more so if there is no actual purpose to life.When you look at the animal kingdom, but especially in mammalia, you will notice that sex is not a very desirable thing. Lets look at cats for a moment, since my un-neutered cat is trying to molest the other cats in the house. The male bites at the neck, forcibly pinning the female while he does his thing. (I'm sure I don't need to go into great detail about cat sex).The female never seems thrilled about his sexual conquest. In fact, when you hear yowls and growls coming from the female, those aren't moans of pleasure. She's in pain, and probably because the male has a barb on the tip of its penis that some would say evolved in order to anchor the penis securely inside the vagina to aid in the insemination process.Now, when we look at most mammals, this seems to be the case-- an almost violent altercation. Its a very impersonal, biological urge to procreate that is particularly not fun for the female.Since people like to point out common ancestry, how do these biological urges play out in an evolutionary sense for humans? Could someone make the argument that males are merely victims of their hormones and are acting in the very way nature has cued them to be, or are humans more "evolved" than their animal counterparts? I realize that some people object to evolution in the sense of it having a general direction from least to greatest, or from less to more, but surely on some level we recognize that there is something vastly different about humans.Can an evolutionist make moral pronouncements, such as "rape is bad," while still clinging to his or her beliefs in evolution? Does it leave them in an indefensible position or can any of you reconcile this?

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

Well, can you imagine the defense attorney paying thousands of dollars to get a geneticist to map out the specific locus in order to sway the jury. This seems like too convenient an excuse to chalk it up as some biological function.I guess the next question is, since you say that we are hardwired in many ways, particularly as it relates to sexual desires, how much affect does sociology play? Where should we divide the line between nature and nurture in a case like rape? Yeah, but why?-- is my point. If we can't blame somebody for being born a certain color or can't blame them for having certain color eyes, why blame them for their behavior? (Please note that I'm just playing the Devil's Advocate here. Of course I think we are accountable for our behavior. I'm just taking the position of the power attorney for a moment).

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

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I've heard some evolutionists attempt to exonerate rape because they see it as a natural part of biology.

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1. Craig Palmer: director of anthropology at the University of Colorado and the U. of Missouri at Columbia
2. Randy Thornhill: biology professor at the University of New MexicoYou can read about their controversial topic in this book.These are just two that openly speak about it.

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Can an evolutionist make moral pronouncements, such as "rape is bad," while still clinging to his or her beliefs in evolution?

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But gravity wouldn't affect, ahem, one's disposition, but evolution would. That's the problem.

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

I would agree, personally, but you and I are in the minority. There is an entire field, sociobiology, which advances this concept. While appreciate your explanation, it doesn't offer us much to the topic. If evolution is certainly true, then evolution is intimately tied into everything in the biological world. Its funny how in one instance, people will casually mention that we acquire predatory and sexual instincts, via evolutionary, biological advances, but not rape. That doesn't make any sense, which is why I am advancing this argument.

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

*sings Johnny Cash: "I walk the line."* Many sociologists and psychologists posit that rape has less to do about sexuality than it does about asserting dominance over a person. I happen to agree. Now, some people, through years of dehumanizing themselves, seem to become sexually aroused at the thought of subjecting someone else to their power by humiliating them.So, in a sense, I don't believe rape is about sexuality, per say, but rather that its a crime of deep hatred in most cases. We also know of men and some women who molest people while they are inebriated. This certainly constitutes rape, however, I'd like to focus on violent rape. Again, a violent rapist somehow equates violence and sex to be synonymous. This kind of behavior doesn't happen over night. Its likely a slow progression that progessively gets worse over time. I'm saying that if you look at how bovine operate, for instance, the way in which they have copulate could be construed in human terms as rape. There is no sexual ritual involved. The bull is pretty much primed to go all the time as long as a cow is present. Without question, every time I've seen cows and bulls together, the female is never happy about it. The cows are always trying to run away while the male pursues her. She never "presents" like we see in other animals. She';s usually just eating some grass when he decides to accost her. Of course, they are just animals and that's how they do things. We can't call it rape because it is natural occurrence and they don't exhibit any kind of understanding for morality. In a sense, it is what it is.Now, how does this relate to humans? Humans are referred to as animals, no different from our amphibious brothers and reptilian sisters, right? And if evolutionists insist that we are the products of our baser appetites (instincts) and there is no objective morals, as Modulous asserts, then how can view rape as a crime? (Again to clarify, I'm not advocating rape in any way I'm just playing the D.A.). Forget about a rape gene or anything remotely akin to that. That's an absurd concept. The only predilection I'm referring to is sexuality, period. The whole point of life for an evolutionist seems to be sex, but more specifically, procreation. If this is esteemed so highly, then what is wrong with rape from an evolutionary perspective? If sex and procreation are such a high virtues in the natural order of things, then why are controversial topics, like abortion, homosexuality, and rape an issue of either support or contention? Then there is nothing wrong with pinning down whom ever you want to forcibly molest without some sense of right and wrong. You could assign to it something as arbitrary as gravity and say that it is what is. Where, then, does this sense of violation come from? It seems that you want your cake and eat it too.

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

I've only seen a handful of clips of primates mating, but it seems pretty impersonal to me, and it sure doesn't appear that either are in throes of passion. That seems to be uniquely human to me. But, I have not studied primate mating rituals in depth, so I can't say with certainty. I tried looking for some clips on the web, but of course, 90% of the info was related to beastiality. (Seriously, what the hell is wrong those people)? This is, by far, the best explanation that I've heard because at least it makes sense. Primates certainly are very social animals, but at the same time, so are many animals. You can see the same behavior in a lion pride or in elephants and dolphins, etc. Even though this sounds reasonable, I have seen a few primates in action. And what I see in their culture is that there is still at least one dominant male in the fray. He controls all the shots. He allows members of the group to eat or not. He mates with whomever he wants, whenever he wants. If this is the case for our supposed closest ancestors, then how much more or less could we attribute the same behavior to humans?Gasby makes a good point about human society. Women seem to want to be cared for. She wants stability and she wants somebody who is going to take control of a situation for her benefit and the benefit of her children. And we see many women drawn to, (for lack of a better word), pricks-- jerks-- a-holes. Now, no woman wants to be raped. So, where is this line in the sand demarcate as far as it would relate in evolutionary terms?

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

First of all, I didn't mention consent. Secondly, certainly is not always consensual and I don't know how you could possibly quantify feline sexual behavior to know whether or not consent is the norm. Thirdly, are you suggesting that felines don't need to procreate in order to conceive? Females are dominant in cat society, but I would agree they are capable of rebuffing. What I was alluding to is that cat sex is very aggressive, where the male bites at the neck of the female to hold her down. I also mentioned that the yowls you hear at night are not always cats fighting somewhere in the neighborhood, but rather, that's the sound of a female cat having sex. She is in pain. Its not a pleasurable experience for her.

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

The point being, if there is no such thing as objective morality, then it isn't morally wrong to commit rape. If it is perceived as being morally wrong, then either nature or man's concepts of morals are screwed up. Indeed. This empathetic/sympathetic response is where our laws derive from-- from a moral framework, which I've fought tooth and nail on other threads. I agree.

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

I don't think I'd find Bonobo sex erotic, but your point is noted. I can't really agree or disagree because I've never seen Bonobos mating. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme of reason to it. I mean, you look at Penguins, and they mate for life, if I'm not mistaken. But if you look at other avian, its not that way. In any event, I don't see too much patterning that would allude to a nested heirarchy. I used to work closely with some Rhesus Macaques and another primate (the name is currently alluding me), on Diabetes research and I have to concur that they are very expressive. I'm just going by my limited knowledge and from what I have personally witnessed. I would certainly lend more credence to someone like Jane Goodall who spent her life's devotion working with primates. But I don't think that Jane would disagree with me that there is a definite heirarchy amongst primates where males vie for dominance. When I worked with the Macaques I misconstrued their body language for about a month before I figured out that they didn't dislike me. They seemed to be pretty hostile towards me until several more highly trained people told me that they were actually just happy to see me. After a while, I began to understand their nature and could see it for myself. I think that primates mate when they get an urge like all other animals do. I don't think its something they ponder or fantasize about. I think pheramones are released into the air and biology takes over. And again, as far as I can tell, it doesn't seem like a pleasurable experience, it appears to be something that they just do. Eating, however, seems to give them immense pleasure. I guess that's a sociological question, not a biological one. I was actually agreeing with you that "nice" guys commit rape. I mean, Ted Bundy, from what I understand was a pretty likable guy-- that is, while he wasn't stalking, raping, and butchering his victims.

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

Actually, we're discussing how one could correlate rape as a natural affinity in human beings and that presents a problem from an evolutionary viewpoint juxtaposed by relative morality. Okay, I'll limit the argument to mammalia. I kind of thought that everyone would sort of intrinsically know that I wasn't referring to sponges being that we're speaking about sexual reproduction. If I'm not mistaken I was referring to humans being viewed by evolutionists as if we're "just animals," meaning our lives our reduced to its simplest categorization. Because I doubt the the bull knows any better. I doubt he has the intellect to understand what a waste of time is, which would explain why most animalia seem incapable of understanding things like boredom. They just don't seem to think like that.

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

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I've heard some evolutionists attempt to exonerate rape because they see it as a natural part of biology.

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In this sure-to-be-controversial book, Randy Thornhill and Craig Palmer use evolutionary biology to explain the causes of rape and to recommend new approaches to its prevention.

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rape circumvents a central feature of women's reproductive strategy: mate choice. This is a primary reason why rape is devastating to its victims, especially young women.

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What? I didn't misrepresent it. I was asked to show which evolutionists believe that rape is actually a biological function. That's what I did. What exactly is the problem? I know they aren't 'advocating' rape. They are saying that it is directly related to biology. So, how much easier is it for a defense attorney to use this book as a way to lessen the charge against the rapist by making the specious plea that, while rape is wrong, your honor, as you can see from the study, they simply were following their base instincts.Its the same kind of argument made for the insanity plea. While slaughtering the family was wrong, your honor, clearly the defendant was incapable of making rational decisions.

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

First of all, I did exactly what I was tasked to do. I provided two sources who believe that rape is a natural behavior. I agree, completely, that they aren't condoning rape. Indeed, their book seeks to strategize how to combat these natural inclinations. So, how can you not consider that exoneration? I didn't say that they think we should all rape people. You are trying to manipulate what I'm saying and derail my thread.Think of it in these terms: A man is charged with homicide and is arraigned. His attorney gets him off with a temporary insanity plea, because he argues that temporary insanity is a perfectly natural phenomenon. He isn't excusing the murder, he is excusing the behavior, which is what this whole inquiry is about.I know they aren't advocates for rape, but they are attempting to reduce the behavior back to some evolutionary step in reproduction.Really, what is the problem?

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-