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Author Topic:   Childhood Vaccinations – Necessary or Overkill?
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 181 of 327 (368587)
12-08-2006 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Buzsaw
12-08-2006 9:31 PM


Re: Herbals are Drugs
Buzsaw writes:
Schraf writes:
That means you take them as drugs. They are not food.
It is so food. Tea is food. Comphrey is in my garden along with the other herbals such as parsley, spinach, et al.
Yay Buz! Green Man of the Year!
It is so food. Pot is food. Pot is in my garden along with the other herbals such as opium poppies, datura, et al. I eat St. John's wort and salvia divinorum also for health along with pot tea. I also mix pot in mushroom tea. That one eats/drinks certain foods for health doesn't make these herbal foods drugs.
I love you, man.

Drinking when we are not thirsty and making love at any time, madam, is all that distinguishes us from the other animals.
-Pierre De Beaumarchais (1732-1799)
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Buzsaw, posted 12-08-2006 9:31 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by anglagard, posted 12-08-2006 11:51 PM Omnivorous has replied
 Message 187 by nator, posted 12-09-2006 4:33 PM Omnivorous has not replied
 Message 196 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2006 2:10 PM Omnivorous has replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 182 of 327 (368592)
12-08-2006 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Omnivorous
12-08-2006 11:26 PM


Re: Herbals are Drugs
I'm glad you didn't mention alcohol or cigars in this, otherwise someone may try to make them illegal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Omnivorous, posted 12-08-2006 11:26 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Omnivorous, posted 12-09-2006 12:04 AM anglagard has not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 183 of 327 (368596)
12-09-2006 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by anglagard
12-08-2006 11:51 PM


Re: Herbals are Drugs
anglagard writes:
I'm glad you didn't mention alcohol or cigars in this, otherwise someone may try to make them illegal.
Perish the thought.
Though I am illegal in certain southern states and my hometown.

Drinking when we are not thirsty and making love at any time, madam, is all that distinguishes us from the other animals.
-Pierre De Beaumarchais (1732-1799)
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by anglagard, posted 12-08-2006 11:51 PM anglagard has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 184 of 327 (368619)
12-09-2006 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by nator
12-06-2006 10:39 PM


Re: Herbals Not Drugs
quote:
And about the FDA? It's been mentioned at least a dozen times in this thread, and by me in several direct replies to you, that the law that was passed that classifies all herbal drugs as "nutritional supplements" was lobbied heavily for in Washington by the manufacturers and retailers of these herbal drugs so they could continue to avoid having to test them for safety and efficacy.
And the facts concerning your reason for the law is located where?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by nator, posted 12-06-2006 10:39 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by nator, posted 12-09-2006 4:17 PM purpledawn has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 185 of 327 (368690)
12-09-2006 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by purpledawn
12-09-2006 7:18 AM


Re: Herbals Not Drugs
quote:
And the facts concerning your reason for the law is located where?
At Quackwatch.com
The entire article at Quackwatch is referenced, and most of the footnotes are hotlinks that take you to more specific information.
An excerpt:
In the early 1990s, Congress began considering two bills to greatly strengthen the ability of federal agencies to combat health frauds. One would have increased the FDA's enforcement powers as well as the penalties for violating the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act [1]. The other would have amended the Federal Trade Commission Act to make it illegal to advertise nutritional or therapeutic claims that would not be permissible on supplement labels [2]. During the same period, the FDA was considering tighter regulations for these labels.
Alarmed by these developments, the health-food industry and its allies urged Congress to "preserve the consumer's freedom to choose dietary supplements." To whip up their troops, industry leaders warned retailers that they would be put out of business. Consumers were told that unless they took action, the FDA would take away their right to buy vitamins. These claims, although bogus, generated an avalanche of communications to Congress [3].
The end result was passage of DSHEA, which defined "dietary supplements" as a separate regulatory category and liberalized what information could be distributed by their sellers. DSHEA also created an NIH Office of Dietary Supplements and directed the President to appoint a Commission on Dietary Supplement Labels to recommend ways to implement the act [4]. The Commission's final recommendations were released on November 24, 1997 [5,6].
The Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act defines "drug" as any article (except devices) "intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease" and "articles (other than food) intended to affect the structure or function of the body." These words permit the FDA to stop the marketing of products with unsubstantiated "drug" claims on their labels.
To evade the law's intent, the supplement industry is organized to ensure that the public learns of "medicinal" uses that are not stated on product labels. This is done mainly by promoting the ingredients of the products through books, magazines, newsletters, booklets, lectures, radio and television broadcasts, oral claims made by retailers, and the Internet.
DSHEA worsened this situation by increasing the amount of misinformation that can be directly transmitted to prospective customers. It also expanded the types of products that could be marketed as "supplements." The most logical definition of "dietary supplement" would be something that supplies one or more essential nutrients missing from the diet. DSHEA went far beyond this to include vitamins; minerals; herbs or other botanicals; amino acids; other dietary substances to supplement the diet by increasing dietary intake; and any concentrate, metabolite, constituent, extract, or combination of any such ingredients. Although many such products (particularly herbs) are marketed for their alleged preventive or therapeutic effects, the 1994 law has made it difficult or impossible for the FDA to regulate them as drugs. Since its passage, even hormones, such as DHEA and melatonin, are being hawked as supplements.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by purpledawn, posted 12-09-2006 7:18 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by purpledawn, posted 12-09-2006 6:02 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 186 of 327 (368695)
12-09-2006 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Buzsaw
12-08-2006 9:31 PM


Re: Herbals are Drugs
Buz, come on.
Is that the best you can do?
Did you even read what I wrote?
How can you simply ignore those cases of people being injured by comfrey?
You have nothing whatsoever to say about the poor people who were made ill and/or died because they ingested comfrey?
Are you suggesting that the comfrey they ingested is merely a food, like, say, spinach or parsley?
What about the liver damage or VOD? What about the pyrrolizidine alkaloids present in comfrey? They are hepatoxins, meaning "liver poisons"?
And let me ask you...is tobacco a food? What about opium? Alcohol? Marijuana? Peyote? Hallucinogenic mushrooms?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Buzsaw, posted 12-08-2006 9:31 PM Buzsaw has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 187 of 327 (368696)
12-09-2006 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Omnivorous
12-08-2006 11:26 PM


Re: Herbals are Drugs
quote:
I love you, man.
Hey, now we know why he's named himself "buz", eh??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Omnivorous, posted 12-08-2006 11:26 PM Omnivorous has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 188 of 327 (368703)
12-09-2006 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Buzsaw
12-08-2006 9:31 PM


Re: Herbals are Drugs
So, is willow bark a food, or a drug?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Buzsaw, posted 12-08-2006 9:31 PM Buzsaw has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 189 of 327 (368714)
12-09-2006 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by nator
12-09-2006 4:17 PM


Testing Avoidance
schrafinator writes:
It's been mentioned at least a dozen times in this thread, and by me in several direct replies to you, that the law that was passed that classifies all herbal drugs as "nutritional supplements" was lobbied heavily for in Washington by the manufacturers and retailers of these herbal drugs so they could continue to avoid having to test them for safety and efficacy.
Your response to my request for more substantial support concerning testing avoidance by herbal manufacturers is an excerpt from an article by Stephen Barrett, M.D. of Quackwatch.
quote:
The entire article at Quackwatch is referenced, and most of the footnotes are hotlinks that take you to more specific information.
Alarmed by these developments, the health-food industry and its allies urged Congress to "preserve the consumer's freedom to choose dietary supplements." To whip up their troops, industry leaders warned retailers that they would be put out of business. Consumers were told that unless they took action, the FDA would take away their right to buy vitamins. These claims, although bogus, generated an avalanche of communications to Congress [3].
Reference #3 is his own book. "The Vitamin Pushers: How the Health Food Industry Is Selling America a Bill of Goods"
I don't see how this supports that herbal manufacturers want to avoid proving their products are safe and effective.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by nator, posted 12-09-2006 4:17 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by nator, posted 12-09-2006 6:25 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 193 by nator, posted 12-10-2006 10:10 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 197 by ReverendDG, posted 12-10-2006 3:37 PM purpledawn has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 190 of 327 (368719)
12-09-2006 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by purpledawn
12-09-2006 6:02 PM


Re: Testing Avoidance
quote:
I don't see how this supports that herbal manufacturers want to avoid proving their products are safe and effective.
FDA proposes regulating so-called "natural" cures, including herbals, hoping to enforce rules requiring any claim that a product treats a disease or condition needs to be backed up by evidence.
Herbal manufacurers and retailers react negatively to this requirement and fund a huge lobbying and public relations blitz on Congress, falsly claiming that the FDA is going to prevent people from buying viamins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by purpledawn, posted 12-09-2006 6:02 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by purpledawn, posted 12-09-2006 8:08 PM nator has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 191 of 327 (368734)
12-09-2006 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by nator
12-09-2006 6:25 PM


Re: Testing Avoidance
I understand what he is saying, but what supports that his statement is true, besides his own book?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by nator, posted 12-09-2006 6:25 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by nator, posted 12-10-2006 8:01 AM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 205 by Wounded King, posted 12-13-2006 6:05 AM purpledawn has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 192 of 327 (368777)
12-10-2006 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by purpledawn
12-09-2006 8:08 PM


If you think the Quackwatch site is lying...
Here's some more evidence:
Center For Media and Democracy-PR Watch
Excerpt:
Under the FDA's proposed rules for implementing its powers, supplements marketed simply as nutritional aids would be subject to the same rules as other food products, while substances marketed as disease cures or treatments would be held to the same "safety and efficacy" standard as drugs sold by the pharmaceutical industry.
Nothing in this labelling proposal would have prevented the manufacture or sale of food supplements, but many supplement marketers rely heavily on extravagant health claims with little scientific backing. Rather than submit to FDA standards, they fought back with a successful orchestrated campaign aimed at persuading consumers that the government was trying to take away their right to buy vitamins.
Edited by schrafinator, : fixed link

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by purpledawn, posted 12-09-2006 8:08 PM purpledawn has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 193 of 327 (368794)
12-10-2006 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by purpledawn
12-09-2006 6:02 PM


Re: Testing Avoidance
quote:
I don't see how this supports that herbal manufacturers want to avoid proving their products are safe and effective.
There is nothing stopping the manufacturers of herbal drugs from following FDA guidelines right now.
Isn't that incontrovertable support that they want to avoid doing it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by purpledawn, posted 12-09-2006 6:02 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by purpledawn, posted 12-10-2006 11:33 AM nator has replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 194 of 327 (368799)
12-10-2006 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Buzsaw
12-08-2006 9:31 PM


Re: Herbals are Drugs
It is so food. Tea is food. Comphrey is in my garden along with the other herbals such as parsley, spinach, et al. I eat parsley and celery also for health along with Comphrey tea. I also mix comphrey in green tea. That one eats/drinks certain foods for health doesn't make these herbal foods drugs. I suppose by your token, that some folks eat take chicken soup when they have a cold makes chicken soup a drug.
so what does parsley do to help your health that eating a non-herb wouldn't do? how about spinach? those are foods, they arn't eatten to help heal something, but used to make energy for the body.
something like comphrey or comfrey, has been found to be a drug, it contains substences that are not safe to digest everyday, infact the substence in comfrey has been linked to cancer of the liver and other things
the thing is buz, chicken soup contains nothing we don't know about, while something like comphrey does, we don't know how the plant should be regulated safely as yet, chicken soup contains what? chicken and water?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Buzsaw, posted 12-08-2006 9:31 PM Buzsaw has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 195 of 327 (368805)
12-10-2006 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by nator
12-10-2006 10:10 AM


Re: Testing Avoidance
The question is what supports that Dr. Stephen Barrett's statements are true or accurate?
The same question goes for the other link you provided. What supports that the statements by Sheldon Rampton and John Stauber are accurate?
quote:
There is nothing stopping the manufacturers of herbal drugs from following FDA guidelines right now.
Don't you want them to follow FDA guidelines?
AER Bill Passes
Washington, D.C.”December 9, 2006”Thousands upon thousands of faxes and e-mails from Citizens for Health members, along with leadership and support from the Natural Products Association and the Council for Responsible Nutrition (CRN), led to victory: the passage of the Dietary Supplement and Non-Prescription Drug Consumer Protection Act (the "AER bill"), S. 3546.
H.R. 6168 Dietary Supplement and Nonprescription Drug Consumer Protection Act (Introduced in House)
Reporting Requirement the same as for OTC drugs
(b) Reporting Requirement-
(1) IN GENERAL- The manufacturer, packer, or distributor of a dietary supplement whose name (pursuant to section 403(e)(1)) appears on the label of a dietary supplement marketed in the United States (referred to in this section as the `responsible person') shall submit to the Secretary any report received of a serious adverse event associated with such dietary supplement when used in the United States, accompanied by a copy of the label on or within the retail packaging of such dietary supplement.
(2) RETAILER- A retailer whose name appears on the label described in paragraph (1) as a distributor may, by agreement, authorize the manufacturer or packer of the dietary supplement to submit the required reports for such dietary supplements to the Secretary so long as the retailer directs to the manufacturer or packer all adverse events associated with such dietary supplement that are reported to the retailer through the address or telephone number described in section 403(y).

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by nator, posted 12-10-2006 10:10 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by nator, posted 12-10-2006 6:15 PM purpledawn has replied

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