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Author Topic:   Has there been life for 1/4 of the age of the Universe?
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 114 (369319)
12-12-2006 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Fosdick
12-12-2006 1:58 PM


Re: The odds of life are unknown
Hi, Hoot. Welcome to EvC. I hope that you enjoy your participation here.
quote:
This leads many biologists to conclude that life is inevitable wherever friendly conditions prevail.
Actually, the reason that many biologists conclude that life is inevitable is that it seems to easy to come about. Looking at geology, the Late Bombardment came to an end about three and a half billion years ago. Before that time, life would have been impossible: if it did come about, it would have been wiped out very quickly during the frequent impacts with bodaceously large impactors. And, in the geologic record, once the Late Bombardment came to an end, we immediately see signs of life. So it appears that once the conditions allow it, life will come about very quickly.
Of course, it is very dangerous to do statistics with only one data point. Perhaps there is something unusual about the earth, and conditions were unusually favorable to life on the early earth. Or perhaps life is unusual, but the quick emergence of life on the early earth was one of those things that are improbable, but improbably events do occur.
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quote:
Wouldn't you expect to see fresh life spontaneously occurring all over the place?
No. The conditions on the current earth are very different from the early earth. We won't necessarily see the precursors of life being able to form in today's chemical environment. Oxygen, especially, will destroy most of the suspected precursors of life very quickly. Also, there is already life all over the place; they, too, would quickly eat up the energy-rich percursors.
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quote:
And why only ONE kind of life?
Maybe there were several kinds of life, but our kind was more successful and drove the other kinds to extinction. Or maybe our kind arose first and dominated before any other kind could get a chance to form. Or maybe there were many kinds, but through exchange of metabolic and hereditary mechanisms (like lateral gene transfer), many of the different kinds kind of ended up homogenizing, so that we are the descendents of several different, independent kinds.
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quote:
Genes obey rules of language”a "symbolic" language, it appears, because DNA configurations are not stereochemical with the proteins they build.
This, I think, is the wrong way to look at it precisely because it does seem to cause some kind of confusion. Despite the use of the usual analogies to explain how heredity works, DNA is not a language, it is not a code. It is simply a chemical that takes part in chemical reactions. In the right chemical environment (like in our cells) it can catalyze its own reproduction. It can also, in the right chemical environment, catalyze the production of proteins.
I have never really understood the "DNA is a code" or "DNA is a language", except as a metaphor that kind of, sort of explains how heredity and embryonic development work. I think the best thing to do, if you really want to understand genetics, is to rid yourself of those conceptions. But I'll let the actual geneticists and biochemists weigh in on how useful the metaphor is.

Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied. -- Otto von Bismarck

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Fosdick, posted 12-12-2006 1:58 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Fosdick, posted 12-12-2006 6:22 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 114 (369394)
12-12-2006 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Fosdick
12-12-2006 6:22 PM


Re: The odds of life are unknown
Hi, Hoot.
quote:
If making artificial life were a relatively simple matter of duplicating the right physical conditions, I suggest that we would have done it by now.
Why do you think that? Although very quick by geologic timescales, the first origin of life on earth was an experiment that took place within a planetful of oceans and perhaps over several million years. Why do you think it should be easy to do within a few months in a laboratory beaker? We're talking about events that happened in rapid succession on planetary scales and in geologic time but would be improbably to ordinary humans working with a tankful of materials over a few months.
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quote:
From my POV these are big maybes.
What other possibilities are there? Life definitely began several billion years ago, and as you pointed out there is currently only one known phylogenic tree. Certainly these hypotheses are testable and are being investigated as we write. I don't know of any alternatives that are testable.
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quote:
If this view is wrong then I need a radical re-education in genetics.
That is a possibility. I'll leave it to the actual geneticists (or those more knowledgeable in genetics than I) to correct whatever errors there are in your view.
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quote:
I just don't know what to do about those metaphors.
That's easy. Don't take them literally.

Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied. -- Otto von Bismarck

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Fosdick, posted 12-12-2006 6:22 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Fosdick, posted 12-12-2006 9:10 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 114 (369426)
12-12-2006 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Fosdick
12-12-2006 9:10 PM


Re: The odds of life are unknown
Hello again, Hoot.
quote:
I'd say you are at least tacitly invoking the Bingo! principle: Let it cook long enough in the right soup at the right temperature with right amount of radiation and, POOF!, there it is.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Scientists aren't just making stuff up. They use what is already known to make hypotheses about the possible scenarios and pathways by which life might have arose. These ideas are then tested in laboratories to see whether they are feasible, and whether the results will shed new light that will allow the scientists to modify and extend their ideas. These are not just random guesses and make-believe. They are testable ideas that are being tested in current research.
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quote:
And to my statement: "I just don't know what to do about those metaphors," you responded:
That's easy. Don't take them literally.
Well, I wish I could. But even the most trivial thought worth recording about life and its origin is, after all, a literal enterprise.
Again, I'm not sure what you mean. Yes, scientists are literally trying to understand the actual, real, literal beginning of life, and they doing so by trying to understand it a piece at a time by doing real, literal experiments in the laboratory.
That is a far cry by talking about genes being "codes" or "language" or having "syntax" or whatever it is that some people are claiming. Sure, the word "code" is often used to describe how the nucleotides along a strand of DNA can be divided up into triplets, and these triplets correspond to an amino acid in a protein. But the only people I know who make a big deal about "language" and "syntax" and take the analogy to digital computers, encyclopedias, and blueprints too far are creationists and IDists who seem to be trying to obfuscate the situation.
Do real geneticists really say things like
...the genes themselves amount to quaternary digital code with a geometrically "symbolic" (i.e., non-stereochemical) language .
Maybe they do, which is why I wish someone would come in and comment on this; so far the only people that I know who say things like this are creationists/IDists.

Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied. -- Otto von Bismarck

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Fosdick, posted 12-12-2006 9:10 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Fosdick, posted 12-13-2006 1:01 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 114 (369905)
12-15-2006 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
12-15-2006 12:39 PM


Re: The odds of life are unknown
quote:
Wouldn't panspermia simply move the question of abiogenesis off planet?
One "problem" with terrestrial abiogenesis is that it seems to happen so quickly. Once conditions on earth were such that life could exist, life did exist. It seems that life originated quite rapidly (in geologic terms, that is).
The "advantage" of panspermia is that it allows the possibility of longer a longer time frame during which life can form. It also allows the possibility of allowing life to form under conditions that would be more favorable to the emergence of life than the early earth.
So if someone were simply convinced that it is far too improbable for life to have formed so quickly under the conditions of the early earth, then panspermia would give them a more satisfying possibility.

Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied. -- Otto von Bismarck

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 12-15-2006 12:39 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 12-15-2006 1:11 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 114 (370215)
12-16-2006 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Fosdick
12-16-2006 2:28 PM


quote:
WHAT LIFE IS...
A collection of organisms each of which possesses self-contained metabolic processes by which they take resources from the environment and make copies of themselves.
quote:
...AND WHERE IT CAME FROM.
From the capacity of this complex universe for self-organization.

Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied. -- Otto von Bismarck

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Fosdick, posted 12-16-2006 2:28 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Fosdick, posted 12-16-2006 3:29 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
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