King David found guilty on all counts.

Isn't this putting the cart before the horse?Brian.

Do you think that they are being so jolly about it because they know that David didn't exist and that it is the meanings behind the David myths that are important?Brian.

You are confusing Christian theology with Jewish theology. Not everyone was a sinner in the OT.There is no original sin in Judaism, and Jews believe that humans enter the world sin free, but only sin because they are not perfect.In fact sin had quite a different meaning in many instances in the OT.Brian.

I think they may well be little kernels in there, and these actual historical kernels do not necessarily need to have involved Israelites.I'm not so sure about David though.Anyway im OT no doubt.Brian.

To remind people of the story.To me this mock trial appears as purely didactic exercise.Brian.

Hi, I don't see why God couldn't choose a rake such as David, when you consider that no human is supposed to be perfect.But, seriously, we can compare David quite easily to the nation of 'Ancient Israel', a nation that repeatedly stuck the finger up to God. Why would an all knowing God pick someone with David's nature to be king, well whey would an all knowing God pick a nation as immoral as 'Ancient Israel'?If we even considered for a moment that the Book of Judges is accuarte, then it would make the Israelites the most moronic nation on Earth. Could people really be so stupid as to turn their back on God time and time and time again? Skinner's pigeons learned quicker than the Ancient Israelites if the Bible is to be believed.I think you might be taking David's tales a little too seriously. I think whoever invented King David were thinking similarly to the ancient philosophers who invented Ancient Israel. They invented stories and characters as didactic treatises, to demonstrate to their people that although King David was unworthy, just as the Ancient Israelites were unworthy, God can still choose you to accomplish His plans.Perhaps David is portrayed this way so that men in that society could identify with him. We already know that their scriptures are full of horrific acts against humanity, we know that they follow a God that condones the murder of women and children, and the rape of young girls, so perhaps the person(s) who invented David had to make him sound realistic to the audience.Brian.

People want us to have the same morality as that of ancient near eastern peoples? I have never heard of this. But this isn’t what Christianity promotes, in fact it is the complete opposite of what Jesus says in the NT.These old ”rules of warfare’ were simply par for the course at the time, but they belong in the world of 3000 years ago. Christians do not argue that we should be wiping out whole nations. But these people are only arguing this because they have a very weak faith. The idea that something in the Bible is ”wrong’ cannot be computed by their tiny brains. They aren’t even thinking about the question, they are only automatically trotting out a mantra to maintain their delusion that the Bible is from God.You have to remember that these people are sub-normal and shouldn’t be confused with Christians. Faith isn’t the full shilling, and she doesn’t care about anyone or anything other than her fairy tale book. She is beyond trying to rationally defend her stance and just distances herself from any responsibility by thinking that if God said or done something then we have no right to question it. Well I think these people obviously believe that the answer makes their God look bad, but these people are reading the Bible in the wrong context. But these are very few in number.However, there are a couple of billion Christians who think we should model our morality on Jesus’ teachings.Jesus says we should love our neighbours. Yahweh says the Israelites were to invade numerous settlements and slaughter the inhabitants etc.Something has obviously changed.Brian.

It is obviously a bigger problem in your area than it is in Scotland. No I was more hinting at that these people should be looking at the morals of Jesus rather than the morals of the authors of some ancient Jewish campfire tales.Personally, I have decided that if someone calls themselves a Christian I believe that they think they are one. However, if I see one of these people blatantly contradicting the teachings of Jesus in the NT, then I no longer consider them to be Christian. It doesn’t mean they aren’t, it just means that I don’t regard them as Christian.Christians who hearken back to the early days of the Bible appear to forget that there is a new covenant for them now, there is a new deal between them and God, a deal that means loving your neighbour instead of killing him and screwing his widow and/or daughter(s).I’ve known a lot of horrible people over the years who call themselves Christians, a couple of them have actually been pastors, and American I may add, but, just like you, I have met many very decent Christians who would do anything for anyone and are clearly getting something different out of their faith than these hate mongers you speak of.I still tutor p/t at uni, and we get quite a lot of religious groups preaching around the uni and in the town centre to some extent. I have heard some horrendous things from these people and, over a post seminar cup of tea, I have shared these things with some of the students who are trainee Church of Scotland ministers, and every single one has been horrified by what some of these groups preach. But they are a tiny minority over here, and they are pitied rather than hated.All I was getting at is that if these people want to call themselves Christian then they should follow the teachings of the one they take their name from, the one who made the New Covenant or the New Testament with them, and forget the old ways that Jesus message has now superseded. Yes, I agree, and this just proves that morality is shoed by society rather than some wee God up in the sky. Faith is retarded though. She doesn’t even care to try and justify why these atrocities are okay with her, unless you can call her robotic following of what she thinks God is some sort of justification. Faith, and those of her ilk, have deep deep psychological problems, and they really should have some sort of therapy. It is a shame. Think of the ones who speak out against it though. Think of the ones who acknowledge that during the time that these stories represent that this was the way ancient societies were. Many Christians realise that these days belong in the past, and that their faith teaches the opposite to these barbarities. Many don’t have the capability to think though, this is the problem, and I think one of the reasons why the USA has so many of these people is the education system out there. Parents seem to be allowed to abuse their kids in the USA by forcing them to believe that 2+2=5, we wont stop these morons who take the Bible literally until they get a better basic education. Deep down they want to believe everything in the Bible is true, to the letter, and deep down they probably believe that there is an apologetic somewhere that will justify a certain ”problem’ to them. Just look at the crank apologists that get linked to by Christians here, 99% spend most of their time howling at the moon.These people know that there is something inherently wrong about slaughtering POW’s and raping the young female survivors, but they cannot be seen to criticise their God. The thing is, if they would educate themselves in the history of the ancient near east they would see that this was a common practise (the ban) carried out by many different groups. They could then accept that perhaps God was instructing them to act in a way that was acceptable at the time, and it was acceptable at the time, although it is frowned upon now.If they educated themselves they would also know that events such as Jericho simply didn’t even happen. Oh you have danced the dance before as have I many times. But you know their answer as well as they do, it is the admitting it that they have the problem with.Brian.Edited by Brian, : spelling

This is what we have all been putting up with for years!It took me a long time to figure out that some people just are not worth arguing with. I would keep asking, asking, asking, with similar results to your own, but after a few years I decided that my time would be better spent on more productive things.Now, when I have a couple of interchanges with a fundy, if there is no progress I just do my best to ignore them. The lurkers know who the good and the bad guys are, they know who is honest and who isn't and if I do get involved in a prolonged discussion with a fundy it is for the lurkers and not the fundy that I keep dialogue going. We both know that we arent going to make these people change thier mind about anything, but we can help to inform the people reading the posts.

Herein lies an obvious problem, how does anyone know if they have interpreted anything correctly.There's a danger that the 'correct' interpretation for you is the one that you 'feel' happiest about.I also have real problems with people who interpret the OT evidence to suit their view of God. A god that murders innocent Egyptian children is a barbarian, whether it is Yahweh, Baal, Chemosh, or any other god.Brian.

What is funny and absurd is your metamorphosis into a mini Kent Hovind. You bleat on about the ills of the world while the hardest thing you have had to do in your life is to try and get two lines of a song to rhyme.Why don't you ask your God why he sits on his arse all day watching people suffer, then write a song about it on that nice clean paper that mummy and daddy gave you pocket money to buy?Brian.

I suppose it is better than answering the question, but you are getting really good at dodging issues.I care because I share a world with fruitloops who do believe in God. I care because some of these fruitloops' actions affect my life. One fruitloop in particular has caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq, and he is about to do the same in Iran.I care because I hear asshole fundies on street corners condemning homosexuals, single parents, and people who live together without being married.I care because moronic theists are abusing their kids by suffocating them with their fairytales, corrupting their minds befire thay are able to think for themselves. Need I go on? Jesus.I am not saying God did anything, I am making a statement that a God who murders innocent children is a barbarian. You are the one that has to deal with whether He is real or not. I know there isnt a God, I know that there was never any Israelites in Egypt during the 2nd millenium BCE.However, many morons believe that there is a God and that He sent the angel of death at the first passover to slaughter all the innocent first born Egyptian children.Now, if you believe in that God then you are sick in the head.So, I am not saying that God did anything, I am saying if you think God exists then you have to deal with the shit that you BELIEVE He has done. Well, it tells us in your Holy Book that He did it, or didn't I interpret it correctly?But Taz is correct, you will find some embarrassing excuse to justify God slaughtering innocent children. It keeps your wee fantasy intact.Brian.

I am fairly confident that you are rich in relation to the poor suffering people that you bleat on about all the time. So rather than bleat on about it I think that most of us here are saying ”get of your arse and do something about it rather than moaning.’ Only until I was 14. Well let me see.I always wanted to be a teacher, so I studied and earned an honours degree in religious studies/History, and a Diploma in Education, then achieved a Masters Degree in Theology, currently working on a Master of Letters in Archaeological Studies (due to finish September 2008), so I think I have achieved quite a bit so far. Well I get emails from all over the world from ex-students telling me how they are doing and how much they enjoyed my classes, so I like to think I have helped a few people along the way. Teaching really isn’t one of those jobs that you just work at. If your heart isn’t in it then you would soon get sick of it. There is nothing wrong with you disagreeing with me or anyone else, but your tone and reasons for disagreeing isn’t going to win you any friends. You seem blissfully unaware that your responses are completely robotic, this is the strange thing. So what is absurd about it? Is it absurd because YOU say it is? Everybody believes that they are right and true, difference is, I usually am. Well, if I post something that is incorrect then I am happy to be corrected. I don’t have this big ego that means I have to be right. I don’t mind being wrong, I do mind being told I am wrong without any reason. If I am wrong about something then how can I know it is wrong if no one tells me? Well you have been proven wrong there mate.Brian.

I never said they didn't exist, I know that they exist to a lesser degree.You seem to think that just because a few areas still have slavery that peoples' opinions towards slavery havent changed at all.My point, and I think it is Taz's too, is that many countries have abolished slavery, thus deeming it immoral, hence morality has changed in these groups.The prevailing attitude of the vast majority of the US and Europe is that slavery is wrong, contrast that to the situation say 3 or 400 years ago and you see a vast difference in attitude. Therefore, this proves that human morality can change.Brian.

According to Bush, God told him to invade Iraq! So, where do the people that preach on the street about homosexuality, single parents etc. get their ideas from?Where do Christians get the idea from that homosexuality is wrong? Well your Holy Book tells us that He did.Also, what crime would a baby that is a few minutes old have committed? Really, I find it quite easy, maybe you should read a bit more about it. Or Hell forever.It is a shame you have no pity for the parents whose children were taken from them by a petty barbarian. Why do I have to believe in the afterlife?Your problem is that you have to think of excuses to justify what even you really think is abominable behaviour by Yahweh. It doesn’t matter what the afterlife is like, the reason for killing the innocent Egyptian babies is given in the Bible. Yahweh slaughtered tiny babies because the pharaoh wouldn’t let the Hebrews leave Egypt. Now if the only way God can get the Hebrews out of Egypt is to kill little babies then that God is not only sick, but is also a complete moron.Any god worth his salt could just have blinked the Egyptians out of existence, or transported all the Hebrews out of there with a wave of his ”hand’. But to go through the histrionics of sending plagues then eventually killing countless children is ludicrous. A wee bit of a slap from a couple of Romans, then a few lashes is hardly immense suffering to an immortal being. Indeed. It is to do with the resilience of the human race, we know we have to get on with things so we do. But by ignoring why he did things you are justifying horrendous behaviour.Why would you want to worship a God that slaughters innocent babies? Why would anybody? It takes a great deal of cognitive dissonance to come to this conclusion. All you are doing is making excuses for God. You know in your heart that many of God’s actions, including the atrocities during David’s reign, are completely immoral and make any decent person sick, but are you so desperate for God to be good that you are willing to ignore the texts and make up any excuse to keep that fantasy intact? But he intervenes in peoples lives! He brings bad things into your life, if we are to believe the Bible at least. We have all had shit in our lives, I know I have had more than my fair share, but that is just life, you have to get on with things. As I said, a couple of hours on a cross is hardly a great sacrifice for an immortal being. Jesus sacrifice is way overestimated. Everything will bring you back to God, you are so determined to keep this fantasy alive that you will delude yourself at every opportunity. Seriously, have you considered therapy of any kind. Can you not see the self delusion you are perpetuating, you are going to believe in God no matter what. No, we free thinkers do not learn anything from God, and the only thing we learn from the Bible is that it is possible to fool some of the people all of the time.Bored now.Brian