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Author Topic:   Morality Decreasing With Time?
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 61 of 305 (370950)
12-19-2006 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by jar
12-19-2006 3:51 PM


Re: Absolutes?
jar writes:
You want to play word games or give us an example of Absolute Truth?
You can't! I can't! None can!
I can only tell you how I used the term.
I said that morals are our perssonal guesses at truth.
Collective morals such as 'love thy neighbor' are the colsest we can come to absolute truths.
You pointed out that some moral behavior based on 'thou shalt not kill' for example, is relative.
Relative to what?
It is relative to 'love thy neighbor'. An absolute truth, or so it seems.
If killing shows less love, it is evil.
If it shows more love, it is good.
It is evil to kill out of hate.
It is good to kill because a child's life is in danger.
The situations are relative to the greater good, and the greatest good is Absolute Truth.
Edited by anastasia, : grammar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 12-19-2006 3:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 12-19-2006 4:15 PM anastasia has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 305 (370951)
12-19-2006 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Rob
12-19-2006 3:54 PM


Re: The semi-hidden moral reality...
Absolute truth is not something you prove exists jar, it is something you cannot deny!
Go ahead and try to give me a logical statement that posits an absolute while denying that absolutes exist.
That's why NJ's signature says what it says.
You have to use absolutes, in order to deny them. So if you deny them, you might as well say that you don't exist.
In fact, you can't prove to me that you do... You might be a silicon chip in a petri dish and all of this is just your imagination. It's just that to deny you do not exist would be absurd in the highest degree.
So as usual nothing but word games and attempts to change the subject.
It is a shame so many Christians are ignorant of reason and logic and so seem to be unable to understand even basic statements.
The question was never whether or not Absolutes exit, but rather whether one specific thing, Absolute Truth, exists.
As I said, I have no idea if that thing, Absolute Truth, exists, only that so far no one has been able to show us and support some Absolute Truth that does not resolve upon examination to a triviality.
An Absolute Truth that cannot be explained, clearly and simply so that all can understand what is true about it, what worth or value it imparts, is of no importance.
If you wish to discuss things, first, pay attention to what the other person says. Second, stop misrepresenting what the other person says.
Is this just Rob yet again?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 3:54 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 4:23 PM jar has replied
 Message 136 by Rob, posted 12-21-2006 1:04 AM jar has not replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 63 of 305 (370952)
12-19-2006 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Brian
12-19-2006 3:16 PM


Re: Morality and Yahweh
Brian writes:
There's also the incident where Jesus murdered the son of Annas, and then murdered a little boy who had bumped Jesus' shoulde
Watched any good National Geographic specials lately?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Brian, posted 12-19-2006 3:16 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Brian, posted 12-19-2006 4:17 PM anastasia has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 64 of 305 (370953)
12-19-2006 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Rob
12-19-2006 3:34 PM


Re: The semi-hidden moral reality...
not necessarily.
if all is relative, then there is someone who will disagree with the statement that all is relative.
many people think there are absolutes. hence, the statement is true.
oops, so much for the statement being absolute, huh?

Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 3:34 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 4:26 PM kuresu has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 65 of 305 (370955)
12-19-2006 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by anastasia
12-19-2006 4:03 PM


Re: Absolutes?
It is relative to 'love thy neighbor'. An absolute truth, or so it seems.
You seem to forget that that is a two parter; Love thy neighbor as you love yourself.
The first part is qualified by the second clause and that is unique and individual. How you love thy neighbor is relative to how you love yourself.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by anastasia, posted 12-19-2006 4:03 PM anastasia has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 66 of 305 (370956)
12-19-2006 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by anastasia
12-19-2006 4:11 PM


Re: Morality and Yahweh
Watched any good National Geographic specials lately?
I hardly watch TV and don't have that channel anyway.
I studied the Infancy Gospel of Thomas about 12 years ago at Stirling Uni.
Anyway, what about Yahweh the bloodthirsty tyrant?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by anastasia, posted 12-19-2006 4:11 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by anastasia, posted 12-19-2006 5:19 PM Brian has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 67 of 305 (370958)
12-19-2006 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
12-19-2006 4:10 PM


Re: The semi-hidden moral reality...
The question was never whether or not Absolutes exit, but rather whether one specific thing, Absolute Truth, exists.
Of course!
What I was trying to remind you of, is that if you disagree with the statement I just made, you will be forced to make an illogical statement.
You are making that out to be a play on words, but it is far more than that. It means that absolute truth is a logical necessity.
It is the only way to answwer your question. Do you deny logic as admissable in court by labling it as word games?
This from the same man who defends the veracity of science because of it's logical and mathematical undeniability?
Whoever Rob is, he must have tried to explain this to you before.
Anastasia must be another incarnation of Rob as well. We're all born of the same Spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 12-19-2006 4:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 12-19-2006 4:34 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 126 by nator, posted 12-20-2006 7:56 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 68 of 305 (370959)
12-19-2006 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by kuresu
12-19-2006 4:12 PM


Re: The semi-hidden moral reality...
So you are saying that I am wrong? Because if you are saying that you 'think' I am wrong, then that's a different thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by kuresu, posted 12-19-2006 4:12 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by kuresu, posted 12-19-2006 4:41 PM Rob has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 69 of 305 (370962)
12-19-2006 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Rob
12-19-2006 4:23 PM


Re: The semi-hidden moral reality...
You are making that out to be a play on words, but it is far more than that. It means that absolute truth is a logical necessity.
Sorry but that is simply not supported by what you have said nor is it related to what I said.
I have not said that absolutes cannot or do not exist.
I will repeat it yet again:
The question was never whether or not Absolutes exit, but rather whether one specific thing, Absolute Truth, exists.
As I said, I have no idea if that thing, Absolute Truth, exists, only that so far no one has been able to show us and support some Absolute Truth that does not resolve upon examination to a triviality.
An Absolute Truth that cannot be explained, clearly and simply so that all can understand what is true about it, what worth or value it imparts, is of no importance.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 4:23 PM Rob has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 70 of 305 (370964)
12-19-2006 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Rob
12-19-2006 4:26 PM


Re: The semi-hidden moral reality...
not really any difference between the two.
I know you're wrong. You don't agree.
and we still have relativety. and that statement in and of itself is relative, because someone will disagree.
even the "absolutes" in science aren't, especially if they are right that we actually are but one verse of a multiverse, each with its own set of constants.

Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 4:26 PM Rob has not replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 71 of 305 (370971)
12-19-2006 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Brian
12-19-2006 4:17 PM


Re: Morality and Yahweh
I'm just being funny, sorry.
I read some of that myself about 10 years ago, but I had no idea it was the same thing till I watched it. I wasn't too into the subject back then, I guess.
Anyway, I didn't come up with a good answer to that problem yet about the violent-seeming nature of God. The best thing to do is take the stories one by one as they have been doing on evc...and just realize that they are not the over-all picture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Brian, posted 12-19-2006 4:17 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Brian, posted 12-20-2006 1:05 PM anastasia has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 72 of 305 (370980)
12-19-2006 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
12-19-2006 2:59 PM


Re: Absolutes?
I can only ask "What Absolute Truth?"
Justice, Mercy, and love.
Pain is relative. All of the above are absolute.
That is why we expect them without excuse from others. Or to add context, that is why we are bitter... because we demand it and have lost all hope in receiving.
There is only one place that I see them converge, and that is on the cross of Christ. (for the record, that last line was quotemined).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 12-19-2006 2:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by jar, posted 12-19-2006 6:19 PM Rob has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 73 of 305 (370983)
12-19-2006 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Rob
12-19-2006 6:04 PM


Re: Absolutes?
Justice, Mercy, and love.
Pain is relative. All of the above are absolute.
How are they absolute? For example people often speck of Justice tempered with Mercy. If that is the case neither are Absolutes.
But the issue is not if Absolutes might exist, they do, but of Absolute Truth?
That is why we expect them without excuse from others. Or to add context, that is why we are bitter... because we demand it and have lost all hope in receiving.
Who expects them without excuse from others? Who has lost all hope of receiving?
There is only one place that I see them converge, and that is on the cross of Christ. (for the record, that last line was quotemined).
What? Just another unsupported assertion and totally unrelated to either the topic or Absolute Truth.
You have still provided no evidence of an Absolute Truth or that there is any indication that Morality is decreasing.
If anything, all of the evidence is that Morality is increasing.
Once we considered slavery moral.
Once we considered prohibiting interracial marriage moral.
Now both practices are considered immoral.
If anything morality is increasing.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 6:04 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Rob, posted 12-21-2006 12:41 AM jar has replied

Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 74 of 305 (370985)
12-19-2006 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by anglagard
12-16-2006 7:13 PM


Everyone Always Bemoans!
I could well have posted the following quote on this forum before during a similar debate - but frankly its too good...
Socrates writes:
The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.
Attributed to SOCRATES by Plato, according to William L.
Patty and Louise S. Johnson, Personality and Adjustment, p. 277
(1953).
I suggest it's normal for some members of a society to fear that things are going down the pan morally.
Edited by Tusko, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 75 of 305 (370993)
12-19-2006 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Rob
12-19-2006 6:04 PM


Re: Absolutes?
Again you are talking in vagaries.
Love, justice, mercy etc. can hardly be absolutes when their very meaning is wholly contextually dependant.
Can you give a specific example where any of these things are absolutes in practical terms??
Whether or not there are absolute truths in any physical sense is comletely irrelevant to any question of morality.
It may or may not be a physical truth that A killed B but the moral question of "was A wrong to kill B" resides seperate to this fact, absolute or not.
Lets not confuse the existence of truth with the existence of absolute morality.
I can see many instances in the bible where in my opinion God acts immorally. Where, in your opinion, do I get that sense of morality from as it is evidently cannot be from God or the bible??
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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