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Author Topic:   King David found guilty on all counts.
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 31 of 174 (370974)
12-19-2006 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
12-19-2006 11:47 AM


Re: Why bring it up?
Well put jar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 12-19-2006 11:47 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 12-19-2006 5:40 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 174 (370978)
12-19-2006 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by riVeRraT
12-19-2006 5:23 PM


Re: Why bring it up?
Thank you sir.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by riVeRraT, posted 12-19-2006 5:23 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 33 of 174 (371031)
12-19-2006 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by riVeRraT
12-19-2006 5:20 PM


riverrat writes:
Who was also a man, and realized what he did was wrong, no big deal really, and not a reason to count the bible out as inaccurate.
I wasn't saying we should count the bible out as inaccurate at all. What I was saying was out of all the people out there that could have resisted the temptation to murder a man and take his beautiful wife, the all knowing god had to choose one that had what it takes to conspire to commit murder.
The bible claims there was only one person sin free.
Are you saying that stealing a candy bar is equally sinful (as in if you were to somehow scale the sinfulness of the act) as sitting there coming up with a plan to murder a friend, execute the plan, and take his wife as a trophe?
Again, out of all the people that could have resisted the temptation to conspire to commit murder and commit murder, the all knowing god had to choose one that couldn't resist the temptation.
Big job, big mistakes.
I completely agree, which is why I question god's ability to choose the right people for the right jobs.
Don't argue the person again, please....
I'm not arguing with the person (you). You suggested that given the right situation I could have been capable of doing what King David did. But unlike you, I am not threatened by eternal damnation or promises of heavenly rewards and yet I take many extra steps to make sure I do what I can to help other people. I would go as far as saying that while I think I am capable of doing such act I will never conspire to commit murder because of lust for his wife in any situation.
Therefore, I had to assume that you were referring to yourself, and that since noone knows you better than you (*takes a breath) you suggested that anyone could do such a thing given the right situation because you suspect that you yourself given the right situation would commit such an act.
Does that make you better than King David, or more advanced?
I say with much humility that yes I am much better than King David and also more advanced. In college there had been many opportunities for me to have sex with a lot of girls (drunk and sober) and yet I did the unthinkable and not take advantage of them. David was chosen by an all knowing god and he actually spent the effort to conspire to kill an innocent man.
It may be unthinkable for you to imagine this, but there are people out there that CAN and DO resist our sexual temptations. Like I said, you'd expect more from a king chosen by god, not less.
Does this mean that God doesn't exist?
Nope. It just means that god's judgement into who was best to lead his kingdom sucked.
Who knows what kind of things King David had to turn away from as king. He was just a man, just like you and I.
Are you making excuses for his crimes?

George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by riVeRraT, posted 12-19-2006 5:20 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by riVeRraT, posted 01-08-2007 8:48 AM Taz has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 34 of 174 (371354)
12-21-2006 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by riVeRraT
12-19-2006 5:21 PM


Who's shrugging?
and who's a fundie?
I wasn't labeling any individuals. I was remarking on the nature of your response. It just happens to be a fundie cliche.
Set a clock by it. Apologists will come out with this cliche anytime a publicity-garnering, sin-denouncing Bible thumper turns out to be a fraud (an old slapstick act itself that is encored with tiring regularity). It happens anytime an ancient Israelite hero in the Bible does something no Christian can condone.
It's a double standard. If one of 'Those People' does something wrong, it's proof that 'they' are devoted to sin, blind, and spawn of the Antichrist. Their only hope is to convert to 'our' religion.
But if one of 'Our People' does something wrong, well... that's no big deal. People are human. So what?
The problem with acting this way is that it reveals the religion of the speaker to be morally bankrupt.
If people do what they do because they are only human and it's no big deal, why have a religion in the first place? Why bother anyone about adopting yours? Let people do what people do. Let God shrug everything off for everybody, just as his followers do for people they happen to like.
___

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by riVeRraT, posted 12-19-2006 5:21 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 12-21-2006 11:33 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied
 Message 38 by riVeRraT, posted 01-08-2007 8:58 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 35 of 174 (371388)
12-21-2006 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Archer Opteryx
12-21-2006 7:52 AM


Archer Opterix writes:
The problem with acting this way is that it reveals the religion of the speaker to be morally bankrupt.
"Morally bankrupt" is an interesting phrase, ain't it? Bankruptcy laws protect the bankrupt from having to pay their debts, kinda like having somebody come from out of the blue and pay them for you.
David was morally bankrupt, but who paid his moral debts for him? Christians would claim that Jesus paid everybody's debt - retroactively and proactively, I suppose. But those of us who come after have to "accept" the substitute payment. How did David rate a free pass?
Presumably, he didn't know anything about Jesus (no hit psalms about Him that I recall). What about all the others today and in the past who never heard of Jesus? Why are their debts still enforceable?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-21-2006 7:52 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Taz, posted 12-21-2006 4:12 PM ringo has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 36 of 174 (371432)
12-21-2006 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ringo
12-21-2006 11:33 AM


Ringo writes:
David was morally bankrupt, but who paid his moral debts for him?
If I remember correctly, the twenty-thousand or so people that died during the rebellion, including his son who died and his wives who were raped by his son.

George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 12-21-2006 11:33 AM ringo has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 37 of 174 (375279)
01-08-2007 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Taz
12-19-2006 9:59 PM


the all knowing god had to choose one that had what it takes to conspire to commit murder.
I don't see a problem with that. It is consistent with life, and the rest of the people in the bible, except for Jesus.
Are you saying that stealing a candy bar is equally sinful (as in if you were to somehow scale the sinfulness of the act) as sitting there coming up with a plan to murder a friend, execute the plan, and take his wife as a trophe?
Yes it is equally sinful. The bible says if you've commited one, then you've commited tham all. It makes us all relatively equal, in one aspect. It is a matter of your heart.
Again, out of all the people that could have resisted the temptation to conspire to commit murder and commit murder, the all knowing god had to choose one that couldn't resist the temptation.
Then that just shows evidence of free will then, doesn't it?
I completely agree, which is why I question god's ability to choose the right people for the right jobs.
I really don't get what your trying to prove here. No where in the bible does God say that He has chosen the perfect leader who will not commit any mistakes. I can only apply the morals, and lessons of the bible, and see exactly how the story fits in with the rest of life. The mistakes David had made are now lessons for millions of people.
But unlike you, I am not threatened by eternal damnation or promises of heavenly rewards and yet I take many extra steps to make sure I do what I can to help other people. I would go as far as saying that while I think I am capable of doing such act I will never conspire to commit murder because of lust for his wife in any situation.
At one time I felt exactly the same way you did, but before I believed in God, I worked in a hospital, sometimes spending a significant amount of time in the mental ward, where they kept Son of Sam, in Kings County hospital in NY. I talked to many "crazy people" and consulers, and I have determined to humble myself regarding that line of thinking, and I fully realize we are only a few circumstances away from doing anything. I find it impossible to sit here and say I will not do this or that, when the truth is you just don't know. Of course you or I do not desire to do any of those things, just like David at one time in his life probably did not desire to do what he did.
Also to clarify, I do not feel threatened by eternal damnation, or heavenly rewards, I am a good person by nature, but nature can change that.
I say with much humility that yes I am much better than King David and also more advanced. In college there had been many opportunities for me to have sex with a lot of girls (drunk and sober) and yet I did the unthinkable and not take advantage of them. David was chosen by an all knowing god and he actually spent the effort to conspire to kill an innocent man.
When David was younger he did not do those thing either.
It may be unthinkable for you to imagine this, but there are people out there that CAN and DO resist our sexual temptations. Like I said, you'd expect more from a king chosen by god, not less.
Thats only your narrow minded view of God. Try not putting God in a box.
Nope. It just means that god's judgement into who was best to lead his kingdom sucked.
According to your opinion. His ways are not our ways.
Are you making excuses for his crimes?
Each and everyone of us are responsible for what we do, period.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Taz, posted 12-19-2006 9:59 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Taz, posted 01-08-2007 1:00 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 38 of 174 (375281)
01-08-2007 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Archer Opteryx
12-21-2006 7:52 AM


It happens anytime an ancient Israelite hero in the Bible does something no Christian can condone.
I don't get it. There was only one sin free.
I think you've been condemned by to many Chriatians in your life. If you have, then I guess I am apologetic in a manner of speaking, because no-one should be judging anyone, or condemning.
I think we can condone sin in a manner of speaking, since no-one is sin-free.
But if one of 'Our People' does something wrong, well... that's no big deal. People are human. So what?
But that doesn't mean they can get away with it. So I don't get how I am a fundie for saying that.
If people do what they do because they are only human and it's no big deal, why have a religion in the first place? Why bother anyone about adopting yours? Let people do what people do. Let God shrug everything off for everybody, just as his followers do for people they happen to like.
First off, I am not a big fan of religion, even though I am deeply involved in one. It will only last as long as the people I deal with are nice to me, and do not judge me.
Of course we let people do what they do. The only real reason for religion is to let people know of God's love, by hopefully sharing the love that which we feel from God to others. If that love is genuine, then you will feel God's love through me. That is the best I can hope for.
I don't think God is shruggin off anything, but according to the bible He is forgiving you when you get to heaven, if you feel remorse (repent) and believe in Jesus (or the name of Jesus)(or maybe even what Jesus represents). That doesn't allow anyone to get away with what they do here on earth, or in heaven. We all pay for our sins in some way, shape or form.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-21-2006 7:52 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 39 of 174 (375362)
01-08-2007 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by riVeRraT
01-08-2007 8:48 AM


riverrat writes:
Each and everyone of us are responsible for what we do, period.
While I can accept your other responses (don't agree with them, though), I could have sworn you have been making excuses for King David by saying we're all human and such. While I agree with the responsible part, I simply don't understand how you can believe that everyone is responsible for his actions and yet make excuses for King David.

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.
George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by riVeRraT, posted 01-08-2007 8:48 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by riVeRraT, posted 01-09-2007 9:20 AM Taz has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 40 of 174 (375601)
01-09-2007 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Taz
01-08-2007 1:00 PM


I am not making excuses for anyone. I am just saying, the mistakes of King David has nothing to do with God choosing him. That was your original point, that why would God choose a guy who would make such a mistake? As if to say that God made a mistake. But God or the bible never claim that King david would have been, or was the perfect person. Only Jesus was the only one without sin, and because of King David's, others like him, and their mistakes, is why Jesus needed to come and show us how we should be, and give us all forgiveness, because we are all screwballs in one aspect or another.
And of course I personally feel that murder, and conspiracy is way worse than stealing a candy bar, but it's your heart that is heading in the wrong direction on both accounts. When a little kid steals a candy bar, his kingdom is the candy store, and his friends around him, so in one aspect I can see how sins can be equal, but that doesn't make them equal to us here on earth.
You make the claim that you would never do such a thing as what King David did, yet you really just don't know, since you are not surrounded by the same set of circumstances as him, or were you born with the same set of desires as him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Taz, posted 01-08-2007 1:00 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Taz, posted 01-09-2007 12:48 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 41 of 174 (375659)
01-09-2007 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by riVeRraT
01-09-2007 9:20 AM


Ok, so let me summarize what you've said.
(1) God did not make a mistake choosing David as king.
(2) God was all knowing, so she obviously knew that if given the opportunity David would conspire to commit murder, commit murder, and steal the victim's wife.
(3) God also knew that some 20 thousand people would have to pay for David's crime with their lives. David's wives would have to pay for David's crime by being raped by David's rebellious son.
(4) God went ahead anyway and chose David.
Have I summed it up correctly? If not, care to explain?
Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.
George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by riVeRraT, posted 01-09-2007 9:20 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by riVeRraT, posted 01-10-2007 8:39 AM Taz has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 42 of 174 (375832)
01-10-2007 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Taz
01-09-2007 12:48 PM


(1) God did not make a mistake choosing David as king.
I have no real way of knowing if God makes mistakes or not. I don't think anyone does.
(2) God was all knowing, so she obviously knew that if given the opportunity David would conspire to commit murder, commit murder, and steal the victim's wife.
I believe God know's all, or can see into the future, and may not be bound by time, since He probably created it, but has chosen to not interfere with people's free will for the most part.
It is amazing what we have done with this precious gift.
(3) God also knew that some 20 thousand people would have to pay for David's crime with their lives. David's wives would have to pay for David's crime by being raped by David's rebellious son.
Yes, the responsibility of most things falls on us. It is plainly obvious that many bad things happen in life, and God created it all. Is this whole life a mistake? Or was their really a garden of Eden?
(4) God went ahead anyway and chose David.
Seems that way. I do not pretend to know why, or call in a mistake/ not a mistake.
Who knows, maybe for the time, it was the best decision, and anyone else would have been worse?
Your saying God made a mistake, I am saying, or asking, how could you possibly know that answer?
You seem to be implying that if God is perfect, and all knowing, that He would have made a better choice. I don't follow that logic, not from reading the bible, or experiencing life. It is a false assumption.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Taz, posted 01-09-2007 12:48 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 01-10-2007 12:33 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 44 by Taz, posted 01-10-2007 12:49 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 43 of 174 (375865)
01-10-2007 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by riVeRraT
01-10-2007 8:39 AM


riVeRraT writes:
Your saying God made a mistake, I am saying, or asking, how could you possibly know that answer?
We recognize mistakes by the consequences. If we cut the wrong pipe and flood the basement, that's a mistake. We don't pretend that we wanted that to happen or that there is some mysterious "reason" for it happening. We recognize our own culpability.
You seem to be implying that if God is perfect, and all knowing, that He would have made a better choice. I don't follow that logic, not from reading the bible, or experiencing life. It is a false assumption.
The "false assumption" there would be that God is perfect - that is, the God described in the Bible.
A better argument would be:
1. David was a bad choice for king.
2. God doesn't make bad choices.
3. Therefore, God didn't choose David.
We make assumptions about what God "must" be like, above and beyond what is described in the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by riVeRraT, posted 01-10-2007 8:39 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2007 5:41 AM ringo has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 44 of 174 (375870)
01-10-2007 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by riVeRraT
01-10-2007 8:39 AM


riverrat writes:
me writes:
(3) God also knew that some 20 thousand people would have to pay for David's crime with their lives. David's wives would have to pay for David's crime by being raped by David's rebellious son.
Yes, the responsibility of most things falls on us. It is plainly obvious that many bad things happen in life, and God created it all. Is this whole life a mistake? Or was their really a garden of Eden?
Riverrat, I personally consider talking in cryptic languages and beating around the bushes to imply one thing but saying another is a form of lying.
Let's go back to this again. David committed a crime. God made 20 some thousand people die to punish david. God made David's son rape David's wives to punish David. You know, a simple yes or no to these statements should do the trick.
Your saying God made a mistake, I am saying, or asking, how could you possibly know that answer?
Oh no, I stopped saying that. I'm simply asking for YOUR position now.
And this isn't world literature or whatever english class you've taken. You can stop with the wise man voice now.

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.
George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by riVeRraT, posted 01-10-2007 8:39 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2007 5:50 AM Taz has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 45 of 174 (376131)
01-11-2007 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by ringo
01-10-2007 12:33 PM


We make assumptions about what God "must" be like, above and beyond what is described in the Bible.
It is not automatic that because of what David did, that David was a bad choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 01-10-2007 12:33 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 01-11-2007 10:16 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
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