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Author Topic:   Bible accepts evolution
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1959 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 9 of 80 (371297)
12-20-2006 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by platypus
12-11-2006 7:48 PM


Re: fixation
Without double checking I think that Ringo's point is valid. It is two different parables. In one it is specifically mentioned that it is a mustard seed. In the other it is just a seed. We do not know what kind of seed it is.
The mustard seed grows out of proportion abnormally. The parable is about the kingdom of the heavens. So it relates to abnormal develpment of the kingdom of the heavens. Now what on earth is that?
The parable of the mustard seed growing abnormally is about the abnormal development of Christiandom. The gospel of Christ was lowly, small, humble, and feeding. It was corrupted and grew abnormally into a world wide religion. This religion houses many evil things and persons in its "branches". Even demonic things and evil spirits came in to hide out and roost in the branches of historic Christianity. So the abnormal growth of the mustard seed is a prophecy of how the church that Jesus established would in the future grow into a worldly religious / political system within which hide all manner of evil "birds".
Now if anyone doubts the validity of this interpretation they should consider similiar sounding ones offered in the Old Testament. It is left to the serious student to find them.
The other parable is positive in nature. And we are not told what kind of seed it is. But through various levels of frustration is eventually finds "good soil". The good soil is the heart of the believer in the gospel who takes care of her heart after hearing and believing the word of the kingdom.
Of the four kinds of soil, four kinds of human hearts are depicted. No not physical hearts. It means hearts as a composite of the man or woman's mind, emotion, will, and conscience. Things in the heart fristrate the growth and maturity of the word of Christ. The cared for heart is good soil and bears fruit for God and man.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by platypus, posted 12-11-2006 7:48 PM platypus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-21-2006 8:14 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1959 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 11 of 80 (371368)
12-21-2006 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Archer Opteryx
12-21-2006 8:14 AM


Re: kingdom of heaven within you
Here you supply your own negative spin. Yeshua nowhere suggests, as you do, that the growth and flourishing of a healthy mustard tree should be seen as some kind of ominous development. But your pessimistic interpretation is just the negative version of the traditional take on this story. Tradition says the 'kingdom of heaven' is the coming 'church' that the storyteller is here to 'establish.'
Your first erroneous assumption to which you vigorously leap, is that because I said that the parable of the deformed mustard seed is negative, I am pessimistic. Not true.
There can be a negative parable without there being the prevailing triumph of that negative situation. Clearly, the deformation of the facade of the kingdom of the heavens will not prevail. So do not assume pessimism on my part or on the part of Christ.
The church and the kingdom of the heavens in Matthew are very closely related. This is proved by chapters 16 and 18 of Matthew. The keys to the kingdom were given to the Apostle Peter who just so happened to preach the first gospel messages in the book of Acts. In those messages of Peter thousands came into the new testament church life.
There was a key for the Jews to come in. And there was latter a key for the Gentiles to come in. Peter was there speaking on both occasions. I think the "keys" have to do with Peter's gospel preaching.
But did Rabbi Yeshua of Nazareth know he was 'establishing a church'? Why would he even think in such terms? No church existed in his day. He showed no interest personally in being anything other than a Jew and this applies to others he met.
Read Matthew 16. And pay special attention to the words "I will build My church"
We may fairly ask what he anticipated. What kind of kingdom did he proclaim? That's not the same as asking what new organized religion came to be in the decades that followed. Yeshua could easily have understood something very different by the term 'kingdom of heaven.' It may have been nothing like a church at all, good or bad.
The church is a matter of grace. The kingdom is a matter of authority and discipline. The kingdom is the discipline aspect of the church. To be in the kingdom is to submit to the authority of the King. You may be saved and forgiven but go on and live your own life as before. Or you may be saved and forgiven and go on to grow in the divine life, learning to be in submission to the authority of Christ.
So the kingdom and the church are very closely related. Since God's will is not simply that people be saved and forgiven, but that they change and live differently, the gospel of the kingdom is preached first. Matthew comes first as the welcome center of the New Testament. "I save you so that you may live in My kingdom."
Now the church is a matter of receiving grace and mercy. But the kingdom is a matter of excercise and discipline. So these are two aspects of the same thing. Or they are very closely related. The Savior is also the King.
I'll look to your other comments latter.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-21-2006 8:14 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1959 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 12 of 80 (371393)
12-21-2006 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Archer Opteryx
12-21-2006 8:14 AM


Re: kingdom of heaven within you
Maybe the 'kingdom of heaven' Yeshua proclaimed was--in every case--a revolution in the human heart. Maybe that was his interest all along. Maybe the term has nothing to do with the 'establishment of a church.'
Jesus told the disciples that among those born of women the greatest one born was John the Baptist. However, He went on to say that he who was least in the kingdom of the heavens was greater than John the Baptist (Matthew 11:11). Now why?
John the Baptist was a forerunner of Jesus Christ. He was close to Christ in that regard. But the new testament disciples have Christ dwelling within them. So their relationship with Christ was ever closer. Even the least of them is closer to Christ by virtue of the fact that each and every true constituent of the new covenant church has Jesus Christ dwelling in them in His spiritual presence.
What makes a person great, by the way, is her or his closeness to the great One - Jesus Christ. The closer to Jesus, the greater. John was closer than all others born of women. But he who is least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than JOhn the Baptist in that Christ has come to indwell them. This indwelling began to take place from the establishment of the new testament church.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-21-2006 8:14 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 12-21-2006 12:34 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1959 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 14 of 80 (371406)
12-21-2006 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
12-21-2006 12:34 PM


Re: kingdom of heaven within you
It has admitedly nothing to do with Evolution.
Jesus was born of a woman. True. But Jesus is the main One in the kingdom of the heavens being its King. So the least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than John. And of course the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than John.
Jesus did not say "The Kingdom of God is within you." He said "The kingdom of God is in your midst" . He was in their midst so the kingdom of God was in their midst. He is in the kingdom and is the main one in the kingdom. He's the king of the kingdom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 12-21-2006 12:34 PM ringo has not replied

  
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