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Author Topic:   Morality Decreasing With Time?
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 151 of 305 (371555)
12-22-2006 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by nator
12-20-2006 7:56 PM


Is scottness Rob now?
Bugger; what a waste of my typing time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by nator, posted 12-20-2006 7:56 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Brian, posted 12-22-2006 6:10 AM Larni has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 152 of 305 (371560)
12-22-2006 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Larni
12-22-2006 5:34 AM


Re: Is scottness Rob now?
Bugger; what a waste of my typing time.
Yes.
Apparently, when you follow an absolute moral being your own morals fall apart.
That darn woman and that darn fruit!
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 153 of 305 (371568)
12-22-2006 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Hyroglyphx
12-20-2006 12:05 AM


Re: The semi-hidden moral reality...
By presupposing that absolutes in one area equates to absolutes in all areas is just silly. There are no absolutes morally but that does not mean there are no absolute anything.
Does the fact you claim that morals are absolute mean, for example, that you claim that all human emotions are absolutes?
You have totally failed to give a specific example of an abolute moral despite attempting to use the unpleasantly emotive example of the rape of ones daughter. No one is suggesting the scenario as you spell it out. It is a straw dog.
So once again I ask - Take "Thou shalt not kill". Is that an absolute or are there circumstances in which you would consider killing justified?
Are you against all war?
Are you against all capital punishment?
If not how do you equate this with moral absolutism where either killing is wrong or it is right with no shades of grey inbetween?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-20-2006 12:05 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 305 (371570)
12-22-2006 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Taz
12-22-2006 1:48 AM


Golden but not Absolute
quote:
WRT the golden rule
What about masochists?
My point exactly. If it was absolutely morally wrong to NOT follow the golden rule, then a masochist, as a person who wants others to hurt him, who did not want to hurt others would be morally wrong for NOT following the golden rule and NOT hurting others, but if he didn't want others to treat him as he wants them to treat him in the first place, is he even bound by the golden rule? He must be for it to be absolute, but then he can never follow it so its not absolute anyways.
I'm not even gonna re-read that so I mght've maken a mistake somewhere in there, I dunno.

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 305 (371571)
12-22-2006 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Brian
12-22-2006 3:10 AM


Re: The semi-hidden moral reality...
I believe in an absolute morality, but not because its logically possible or because there are actual examples of it. The only thing I can can back it up with is good ol' Goddidit.
I certianly hope you aren't taking Yahweh as an example of absolute morality!
No, not necessarily. Just an omnipotent god, in general. They could have an absolute morality even if we couldn't come up with an example and found it logically impossible, becuase, due to their omnipotence, they could have anything.
I see where you're going with Yahweh, though...

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 156 of 305 (371579)
12-22-2006 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Taz
12-22-2006 1:48 AM


Re: If you have evidence now is the time to bring it forward.
In considering the Golden Rule, Gasby asked:
What about masochists?
If they are honest, that is simply not an issue. The masochist likes to be treated in a way that brings him pleasure, so he would treat another in whatever way pleases the other person.
The issue of masochism is always brought up when the Golden Rule comes up for discussion as though it were some major flaw or conflict.
It is not.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Taz, posted 12-22-2006 1:48 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Taz, posted 12-22-2006 10:49 AM jar has replied
 Message 164 by anastasia, posted 12-22-2006 2:04 PM jar has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 157 of 305 (371591)
12-22-2006 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by jar
12-22-2006 9:42 AM


Re: If you have evidence now is the time to bring it forward.
jar writes:
If they are honest, that is simply not an issue. The masochist likes to be treated in a way that brings him pleasure, so he would treat another in whatever way pleases the other person.
Not necessarily. By definition, we would think that masochists like being treated as such to bring them pleasure, but I don't know if that is the case.
The issue of masochism is always brought up when the Golden Rule comes up for discussion as though it were some major flaw or conflict.
I didn't bring it up to say it's some kind of major flaw with the GR. The GR is great and it deserves recognition, but it doesn't always apply. I think it is human intuition of what goodness is that gives it validity.
For example, if we were to live in feudal japan a few hundred years ago. The samurais treated and wanted to treat the peasants like crap and the peasants felt the samurais should treat and want to treat the peasants like crap.
Take my mom, for another example. My dad thinks women are inferior and that a woman president would make the presidency into a joke. He also not respect my mom at all and sometimes openly say she's a stupid woman. My mom thinks women are inferior to men and that a woman president would make the presidency into a joke. She, being a good christian wife, actually takes all that crap from my dad and tells me that she's "just a woman".
The golden rule is great, but perhaps it isn't really justified?

George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

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 Message 156 by jar, posted 12-22-2006 9:42 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by jar, posted 12-22-2006 11:01 AM Taz has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 158 of 305 (371597)
12-22-2006 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Taz
12-22-2006 10:49 AM


Re: If you have evidence now is the time to bring it forward.
For example, if we were to live in feudal japan a few hundred years ago. The samurais treated and wanted to treat the peasants like crap and the peasants felt the samurais should treat and want to treat the peasants like crap.
If that were true, and there is ample evidence it is not true, what would be the problem?
Take my mom, for another example. My dad thinks women are inferior and that a woman president would make the presidency into a joke. He also not respect my mom at all and sometimes openly say she's a stupid woman. My mom thinks women are inferior to men and that a woman president would make the presidency into a joke. She, being a good christian wife, actually takes all that crap from my dad and tells me that she's "just a woman".
Again, what is the problem? If they are satisfied with the relationship what is your problem?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 159 of 305 (371600)
12-22-2006 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by jar
12-22-2006 11:01 AM


Re: If you have evidence now is the time to bring it forward.
jar writes:
Again, what is the problem? If they are satisfied with the relationship what is your problem?
Well, I guess this is where we agree to disagree, then.

George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

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 Message 158 by jar, posted 12-22-2006 11:01 AM jar has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 305 (371629)
12-22-2006 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by jar
12-21-2006 12:24 PM


Re: If you have evidence now is the time to bring it forward.
I agree that it is a great Maxim, but it is not an Absolute. For example, it has two parts, and how you treat others depends on how you would like to be treated.
Yes, but what makes it so ostensible is that we all have come to a consensus without even trying, naturally, if you will, that none of us want to punched in the face. We all want to be loved and cared for and treated with a measure of respect, etc.
Remember, relative morals can still be powerful and at a very high level.
I agree, but what does it mean? It has no real meaning behind it unless its delivered with absolute enforcement. That's what why nobody fears American law. They fear Chinese law, because when the Chinese tell you they're going to imprison you for x-amount of years, they mean it. They aren't going to change their mind. When the US tells you they are going to imprison you for x-amount of years, plan to be on parole in a week.
In my opinion, this is what relative morals have done for us. Up sometimes means up, but every now and again, it means down (even though, in order to even understand up or down must be first understood in absolute terms).

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by jar, posted 12-21-2006 12:24 PM jar has replied

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 Message 167 by Straggler, posted 12-22-2006 3:59 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 161 of 305 (371633)
12-22-2006 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Hyroglyphx
12-22-2006 12:10 PM


Re: If you have evidence now is the time to bring it forward.
On the Golden Rule:
jar writes:
I agree that it is a great Maxim, but it is not an Absolute. For example, it has two parts, and how you treat others depends on how you would like to be treated.
to which NJ relpied ...
quote:
Yes, but what makes it so ostensible is that we all have come to a consensus without even trying, naturally, if you will, that none of us want to punched in the face. We all want to be loved and cared for and treated with a measure of respect, etc.
which is very relative. It is a consensus and has and will change over time.
But then you wander off to laws which have nothing to do with morality and enforcement which again is not at all related to either the topic or morals.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 305 (371643)
12-22-2006 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by crashfrog
12-21-2006 10:38 PM


Re: The semi-hidden moral reality...
We don't know that there are any, though. There are simply physical values that seem arbitrary in our models and aren't observed to change.
You're not understanding the philosophy behind it. You couldn't 'know' anything without them. We've all heard of the law of non-contradiction, that two things of opposite meaning can't both be right. But that's really only half of it. In order to even understand something means that we recognize it under absolute terms.
If you claimed that you could be on the continent of Africa and the continent of Australia at the same time, people would either laugh at you or think you were deranged to make such a claim. That's because physical law would prohibit that. Indeed, that's what was supposed to make miracles so miraculous-- that they defied intuition and natural law.
That may, or may not, mean they're constant. They could be derivative values, or not constant at all.
But you can't hang up your argument on "may." The mere fact that it is constant and hasn't ever changed is enough to render it ineffectual. But this about morality, not physical constants. I only mention to show that in the known universe, absolutes exist.
Are you seriously claiming to have "defeated" me with an argument that I rebutted and that you haven't yet defended?
No, you claim to have defeated my argument with semantics. But you haven't said anything other than that you've heard all of this before. That's not an argument at all.
Any response whatsoever to my argument about relativism.
You never gave one. You just tap danced. Now, you will no doubt try to defend yourself. If we have contradictory answers, both of us can't be right. Both answers may not be cogent, but only one of us has the possibility of being right. Would you agree?

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by crashfrog, posted 12-21-2006 10:38 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 163 of 305 (371650)
12-22-2006 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Larni
12-22-2006 5:27 AM


Re: Morality and Yahweh
Larni writes:
How ironic that the higher the level of education one has the the less religious one is (and less likely one is to commit a crime).
Not particularly ironic, no. After all, the Bible says as much.
The Bible also says that all wisdom is a gift from God. Education has never been known to produce intelligence. Intelligence on the other hand craves education.
I find no irony in an intelligent man avoiding crime. Sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Larni, posted 12-22-2006 5:27 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 164 of 305 (371652)
12-22-2006 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by jar
12-22-2006 9:42 AM


Re: If you have evidence now is the time to bring it forward.
jar writes:
The issue of masochism is always brought up when the Golden Rule comes up for discussion as though it were some major flaw or conflict.
It is not.
Am I reading this correctly? Am I finding a teensy-weensy chink in your armour and is the Golden Rule now not relative to its other part?
What about its OTHER part? 'Love the Lord thy God with your whole heart, your whole soul, and your whole mind'? I do think that loving our neighbor was meant to be relative to how we loved God. In a culture where we have so many different relgions we simply can not reach a concensus on how to love God, or even if there is one, so we must come to a point where there is a confliction between what different people's gods require. Scottness may think morality is declining, and it is to him, because people are not loving his God with their whole hearts, souls, and minds, and following his God's rules. Most of us are taking the second part of the commandment 'love thy neighbor' as law, even when it contradicts, 'love thy God'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by jar, posted 12-22-2006 9:42 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by jar, posted 12-22-2006 2:53 PM anastasia has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 165 of 305 (371659)
12-22-2006 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by anastasia
12-22-2006 2:04 PM


Re: If you have evidence now is the time to bring it forward.
What about its OTHER part? 'Love the Lord thy God with your whole heart, your whole soul, and your whole mind'? I do think that loving our neighbor was meant to be relative to how we loved God.
Loving our neighbor is the only way we can love God. There is nothing we can do for God, that is the whole point of the Sheep and Goat parable.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by anastasia, posted 12-22-2006 2:04 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
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