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Member (Idle past 863 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Morality Decreasing With Time? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Bugger; what a waste of my typing time.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4985 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Bugger; what a waste of my typing time. Yes. Apparently, when you follow an absolute moral being your own morals fall apart. That darn woman and that darn fruit! Brian.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
By presupposing that absolutes in one area equates to absolutes in all areas is just silly. There are no absolutes morally but that does not mean there are no absolute anything.
Does the fact you claim that morals are absolute mean, for example, that you claim that all human emotions are absolutes? You have totally failed to give a specific example of an abolute moral despite attempting to use the unpleasantly emotive example of the rape of ones daughter. No one is suggesting the scenario as you spell it out. It is a straw dog. So once again I ask - Take "Thou shalt not kill". Is that an absolute or are there circumstances in which you would consider killing justified?Are you against all war? Are you against all capital punishment? If not how do you equate this with moral absolutism where either killing is wrong or it is right with no shades of grey inbetween?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
quote:What about masochists? My point exactly. If it was absolutely morally wrong to NOT follow the golden rule, then a masochist, as a person who wants others to hurt him, who did not want to hurt others would be morally wrong for NOT following the golden rule and NOT hurting others, but if he didn't want others to treat him as he wants them to treat him in the first place, is he even bound by the golden rule? He must be for it to be absolute, but then he can never follow it so its not absolute anyways. I'm not even gonna re-read that so I mght've maken a mistake somewhere in there, I dunno.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I believe in an absolute morality, but not because its logically possible or because there are actual examples of it. The only thing I can can back it up with is good ol' Goddidit.
I certianly hope you aren't taking Yahweh as an example of absolute morality!
No, not necessarily. Just an omnipotent god, in general. They could have an absolute morality even if we couldn't come up with an example and found it logically impossible, becuase, due to their omnipotence, they could have anything. I see where you're going with Yahweh, though...
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
In considering the Golden Rule, Gasby asked:
What about masochists? If they are honest, that is simply not an issue. The masochist likes to be treated in a way that brings him pleasure, so he would treat another in whatever way pleases the other person. The issue of masochism is always brought up when the Golden Rule comes up for discussion as though it were some major flaw or conflict. It is not. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Taz Member (Idle past 3318 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
jar writes:
Not necessarily. By definition, we would think that masochists like being treated as such to bring them pleasure, but I don't know if that is the case.
If they are honest, that is simply not an issue. The masochist likes to be treated in a way that brings him pleasure, so he would treat another in whatever way pleases the other person. The issue of masochism is always brought up when the Golden Rule comes up for discussion as though it were some major flaw or conflict.
I didn't bring it up to say it's some kind of major flaw with the GR. The GR is great and it deserves recognition, but it doesn't always apply. I think it is human intuition of what goodness is that gives it validity. For example, if we were to live in feudal japan a few hundred years ago. The samurais treated and wanted to treat the peasants like crap and the peasants felt the samurais should treat and want to treat the peasants like crap. Take my mom, for another example. My dad thinks women are inferior and that a woman president would make the presidency into a joke. He also not respect my mom at all and sometimes openly say she's a stupid woman. My mom thinks women are inferior to men and that a woman president would make the presidency into a joke. She, being a good christian wife, actually takes all that crap from my dad and tells me that she's "just a woman". The golden rule is great, but perhaps it isn't really justified? George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
For example, if we were to live in feudal japan a few hundred years ago. The samurais treated and wanted to treat the peasants like crap and the peasants felt the samurais should treat and want to treat the peasants like crap. If that were true, and there is ample evidence it is not true, what would be the problem?
Take my mom, for another example. My dad thinks women are inferior and that a woman president would make the presidency into a joke. He also not respect my mom at all and sometimes openly say she's a stupid woman. My mom thinks women are inferior to men and that a woman president would make the presidency into a joke. She, being a good christian wife, actually takes all that crap from my dad and tells me that she's "just a woman". Again, what is the problem? If they are satisfied with the relationship what is your problem? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Taz Member (Idle past 3318 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
jar writes:
Well, I guess this is where we agree to disagree, then. Again, what is the problem? If they are satisfied with the relationship what is your problem? George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
I agree that it is a great Maxim, but it is not an Absolute. For example, it has two parts, and how you treat others depends on how you would like to be treated. Yes, but what makes it so ostensible is that we all have come to a consensus without even trying, naturally, if you will, that none of us want to punched in the face. We all want to be loved and cared for and treated with a measure of respect, etc.
Remember, relative morals can still be powerful and at a very high level. I agree, but what does it mean? It has no real meaning behind it unless its delivered with absolute enforcement. That's what why nobody fears American law. They fear Chinese law, because when the Chinese tell you they're going to imprison you for x-amount of years, they mean it. They aren't going to change their mind. When the US tells you they are going to imprison you for x-amount of years, plan to be on parole in a week. In my opinion, this is what relative morals have done for us. Up sometimes means up, but every now and again, it means down (even though, in order to even understand up or down must be first understood in absolute terms). "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
On the Golden Rule:
jar writes: I agree that it is a great Maxim, but it is not an Absolute. For example, it has two parts, and how you treat others depends on how you would like to be treated. to which NJ relpied ...
quote: which is very relative. It is a consensus and has and will change over time. But then you wander off to laws which have nothing to do with morality and enforcement which again is not at all related to either the topic or morals. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
We don't know that there are any, though. There are simply physical values that seem arbitrary in our models and aren't observed to change. You're not understanding the philosophy behind it. You couldn't 'know' anything without them. We've all heard of the law of non-contradiction, that two things of opposite meaning can't both be right. But that's really only half of it. In order to even understand something means that we recognize it under absolute terms. If you claimed that you could be on the continent of Africa and the continent of Australia at the same time, people would either laugh at you or think you were deranged to make such a claim. That's because physical law would prohibit that. Indeed, that's what was supposed to make miracles so miraculous-- that they defied intuition and natural law.
That may, or may not, mean they're constant. They could be derivative values, or not constant at all. But you can't hang up your argument on "may." The mere fact that it is constant and hasn't ever changed is enough to render it ineffectual. But this about morality, not physical constants. I only mention to show that in the known universe, absolutes exist.
Are you seriously claiming to have "defeated" me with an argument that I rebutted and that you haven't yet defended? No, you claim to have defeated my argument with semantics. But you haven't said anything other than that you've heard all of this before. That's not an argument at all.
Any response whatsoever to my argument about relativism. You never gave one. You just tap danced. Now, you will no doubt try to defend yourself. If we have contradictory answers, both of us can't be right. Both answers may not be cogent, but only one of us has the possibility of being right. Would you agree? "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5979 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Larni writes: How ironic that the higher the level of education one has the the less religious one is (and less likely one is to commit a crime). Not particularly ironic, no. After all, the Bible says as much. The Bible also says that all wisdom is a gift from God. Education has never been known to produce intelligence. Intelligence on the other hand craves education. I find no irony in an intelligent man avoiding crime. Sorry.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5979 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
jar writes: The issue of masochism is always brought up when the Golden Rule comes up for discussion as though it were some major flaw or conflict. It is not. Am I reading this correctly? Am I finding a teensy-weensy chink in your armour and is the Golden Rule now not relative to its other part? What about its OTHER part? 'Love the Lord thy God with your whole heart, your whole soul, and your whole mind'? I do think that loving our neighbor was meant to be relative to how we loved God. In a culture where we have so many different relgions we simply can not reach a concensus on how to love God, or even if there is one, so we must come to a point where there is a confliction between what different people's gods require. Scottness may think morality is declining, and it is to him, because people are not loving his God with their whole hearts, souls, and minds, and following his God's rules. Most of us are taking the second part of the commandment 'love thy neighbor' as law, even when it contradicts, 'love thy God'.
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
What about its OTHER part? 'Love the Lord thy God with your whole heart, your whole soul, and your whole mind'? I do think that loving our neighbor was meant to be relative to how we loved God. Loving our neighbor is the only way we can love God. There is nothing we can do for God, that is the whole point of the Sheep and Goat parable. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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