Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Morality Decreasing With Time?
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 196 of 305 (371983)
12-24-2006 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by joshua221
12-24-2006 10:35 AM


Re: On Absolutes
No, I'm a Christian.
I don't know what about my post made it look like I wasn't.
Well those things happen...
I mistook your post as sarcastic. Perhaps I need to let my gaurd down a notch.
It's so dangerous around here... a guy could acccidentally cut the head off a brother if he isn't careful. Always on edge!
I'm still a bit clumsy with my sword. Forgive me, and merry Christmas prophex.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by joshua221, posted 12-24-2006 10:35 AM joshua221 has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 197 of 305 (371984)
12-24-2006 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Rob
12-24-2006 10:41 AM


Re: On Absolutes
scottness
I can demonstrate that He exists by laying down my life for Him.
That only demonstrates your willingness to do lay down your life not his existence. Cult members do it all the time.
You just think it's foolish in terms of human understanding. Well I agree! But I also think it is foolish to make absolute statements while denying that absolute exist.
There you go telling me what I think. I am not the one making the claims concerning God and absolutes, you are. The onus is on you to present the argument to convince me and you have yet to do so because your logic does not yet stand up to questioning.
Absolutes do exist! His name is the first and the last. The alpha and omega. Emanuel (God with us). Jesus!
You do not make something valid by declaration alone sir. Flavouring your speech with biblical reference and posturing is as equally meaningless. Defend your assertion with valid reasoning and not drivel pertinent only to your own narrow view of the world,otherwise you cannot hope to convince other of its validity.
I only profess it because I've met Him. He came to me when I cryed out to Him. That is how I know... not because I foolishly believe something I've never seen.
You are not offering me any kind of conviction here because it appears to me that you made the decisions when emotionally unsettled {I cryed out to him} which is the worst possible time to be able to rationally determine the validity of an experience. You know only what it appears { and would therefore lean your bias to expectation heavily towards achieving} you desperately wanted and not necessarily what was actually occurring.
Yet again this is not a convincing arguement in your favour. Can you offer something independent of your emotional instability sir?
That's why Frued had to dismiss it as delusion. Because you cannot argue with someone elses experience.
I have no idea of Freuds position on this and it is also irrelevant.
Of course you cannot argue someone else's experience of an event but neither can that person use it as a premise to an arguement since we who must listen cannot judge for ourselves its validity nor logic.
Again you are left with your own subjective world and cannot bring to bear anything of value.

Dear Mrs Chown, Ignore your son's attempts to teach you physics. Physics isn't the most important thing. Love is.
Best wishes, Richard Feynman.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 10:41 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 11:24 AM sidelined has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 198 of 305 (371985)
12-24-2006 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Buzsaw
12-24-2006 9:33 AM


Re: Communication and Morality
1. Global terrorism against innocent victims (crime) on the increase.
2. Theft increase.
3. Deviant sex practices traditional among most cultures on increase.
4. Global youth gang crime on increase.
5. Morality in government on decline including political corruption et al.
6. Drug usage and related moral/crime problems.
7. Corporate crime on increase.
8. Identity theft and security breach due to technology becoming major global problem.
9. Internet crimes, porn, et al corrupting youth, churchmen and other.
Do you really think that any of those are actually true?
Do you really think terrorism is on an increase or that all terrorists are immoral?
And you think theft is on a rise? You evidence for that is?
Deviant sex practices? Hell Buz the immorality is that you consider them deviant.
Buz you list is just another collection of your normal bare unsupported assertions.
Hopefully the record stands and folk will again see the absolute bankruptcy and worthlessness of your position.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Buzsaw, posted 12-24-2006 9:33 AM Buzsaw has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 199 of 305 (371986)
12-24-2006 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Rob
12-24-2006 1:49 AM


yet another nonsense off topic non-response.
jar said ...
Fine. So present an example of an Absolute Truth that we can examine.
to which rob misrepresented the question asked and replied with a totally unrelated sermon. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with an example of an Absolute Truth.
Again, I must repeat that so far no one has been able to provide any examples of Absolute Truth or Absolute Morals that stand up to examination.
In addition, no one has been able to show any evidence that morality is decreasing over time.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 1:49 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 11:30 AM jar has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 200 of 305 (371987)
12-24-2006 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by sidelined
12-24-2006 11:10 AM


Re: On Absolutes
There you go telling me what I think. I am not the one making the claims concerning God and absolutes, you are. The onus is on you to present the argument to convince me and you have yet to do so because your logic does not yet stand up to questioning.
Only the Holy Spirit can persuade. God does not persuade by argument alone Sidelined. He persuades by sprinkling the conscious which combines reason with feeling. He works upon your heart and speaks to the root of your being.
But that is weakness to you. You think only with your mind. But that would be like loving your mother only out of nessecity. Or like marrying for money without regard for an intimate emotional relationship.
You do not make something valid by declaration alone sir. Flavouring your speech with biblical reference and posturing is as equally meaningless. Defend your assertion with valid reasoning and not drivel pertinent only to your own narrow view of the world,otherwise you cannot hope to convince other of its validity.
I cannot convince anyone. And neither can God if they are determined not to be convinced!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by sidelined, posted 12-24-2006 11:10 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by sidelined, posted 12-24-2006 11:52 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 201 of 305 (371989)
12-24-2006 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by jar
12-24-2006 11:21 AM


Re: yet another nonsense off topic non-response.
Since the expiration of my suspension, I'm not getting email notification of responses to me.
Any help would be 'Absolutely' appriciated as cooperative. And any lack of help would be 'absolutely' intentional for the purposes of self.
That is the best way for me to illustrate the point as well as try to get resolved a technical difficulty.
:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by jar, posted 12-24-2006 11:21 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by jar, posted 12-24-2006 11:58 AM Rob has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 202 of 305 (371992)
12-24-2006 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Rob
12-24-2006 11:24 AM


Re: On Absolutes
scotness
Only the Holy Spirit can persuade. God does not persuade by argument alone Sidelined. He persuades by sprinkling the conscious which combines reason with feeling. He works upon your heart and speaks to the root of your being.
So you say.What makes you think I am unfeeling? By what measure do you determine the extent of a man's heart sir? You claim that god works on it yet here I am unworked by this God and yet having no problems with it nor having a great deal of angst concerning it. I can only assume by your descriptions that the likelihood is that you are deluded in your assesment of your experience. I could be wrong but have no way of determining this.
But that is weakness to you. You think only with your mind. But that would be like loving your mother only out of nessecity. Or like marrying for money without regard for an intimate emotional relationship.
Oh contraire sir. I dearly loved my mom right up till she passed away. She was a gentle loving woman who gave me great gifts of compassion and tolerance.I do indeed think with my mind. How is that a disadvantage? If my mind can clearly see that an emotional condition is clouding its judgement in matters such as you bring to the floor how is that to my detriment/ If God indeed exists then how can mere questioning of the validity of an experience be capable of destroying that validity. I would expect a event that God participated in to be strengthened by the questioning of it not weakened or abolished.
I cannot convince anyone. And neither can God if they are determined not to be convinced!
Did you actually think before you wrote that? Convincing someone requires that they be cognizant of deception {both in themselves and others} as well as being able to question their assumptions in full and complete freedom in order that the experience should be considered valid.
It is not a matter of shunning the existence of a God it is the demanding of evidence for such an existence.Why should God hide away?
Why should evidence of a entity such as God amount to nothing at all?
Why should reasoning be absent in the determination of God if that very God is responsible for our ability to question in the first place? This makes no sense at all IMHO.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 11:24 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 2:42 PM sidelined has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 305 (371993)
12-24-2006 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by RickJB
12-23-2006 1:50 PM


Re: If you have evidence now is the time to bring it forward.
You've yet to establish either that there IS a God or that such an entity bears any relation to your concept of it!
I've expressed numerous times and on separate occasions that I cannot prove the existence of God? That doesn't negate the existence, nor does that mean that life is only comprised of tangible objects.
quote:
Every culture has a belief that unjust killings, i.e., murder, is just that-- murder. What they may disagree on is what constitutes murder.
Which surely is a argument against absolute morality?
Then let me reiterate for clarification: Everyone knows that murder is wrong. What constitutes murder may differ from culture to culture, I certainly agree-- not by much, but its still present. However, that doesn't make us right when we are wrong. Only God gets to make that determination. You are making the inference that absolute morality is supposed to mean that we are incapable of breaking the absolute Law. That's not what it means. It means God has established His law as a finality. There are only two ways around it. The first is to follow the law in its entirety and never break a commandment. No one has ever been able to do that, save Jesus. The other is to accept His covering of sin through Jesus Christ who has payed our dues for us.
quote:
How could a belief, something not tangible, be transmitted through a genetic line?
Humans ARE able to communicate with each other.
................? Where did I mention the ability to communicate and how does that answer my question?
This raises an interesting question. If God is the source of "absolute morality", why does he use a human artifact like a book to spread his message if he can beam innate morality directly into our heads?
Why does the sun rise in the East and set in the West instead of vice versa? How many more asinine questions can I come up with-- answers that none of us are qualified to answer; answers that only bring up more questions in an endless cycle? But to answer your question more directly, its not the "book" that means anything, its the message contained therein being penned by people who have had a relationship with Him. I mean, we could ask why God would create physical life. Why not forgo all of this? Why create in us a dependency for Him? Why blue eyes and not red? Why red blood instead of hot pink? I can't answer questions like that.
If you had never come into contact with Christianity, from where would your moral outlook have come?
I would be the same as everyone else. I would understand this battle with my conscience, but I'd dismiss it as a fundy influence and trot on anyway to my peril. Isn't that how it usually goes for the haughty?
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities”his eternal power and divine nature”have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." -Romans 1:18-20

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by RickJB, posted 12-23-2006 1:50 PM RickJB has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 204 of 305 (371994)
12-24-2006 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Rob
12-24-2006 11:30 AM


Re: yet another nonsense off topic non-response.
There is Absolutely NOTHING I can do to help you. Look in your profile and see if notification is turned one. If that does not work there is a thread to ask for moderator assistance, consider posting your question there by replying directly to one of the Admins (hint, I am NOT an admin).
Further your example has NOTHING to do with the topic, please try to address the subject of a thread.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 11:30 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 12:46 PM jar has replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 205 of 305 (372001)
12-24-2006 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Rob
12-24-2006 11:04 AM


Re: On Absolutes
scottness says:
But when you conbine logical consistency with emperical adequacy, and then add 'experential relevance' (or the existential), then you've mixed morality into the whole mixture.
I hear:
But when you conbine logical consistency with QUACK-QUACK, and then add QUACK-QUACK (or the existential), then you've mixed morality into the whole mixture.
Why don`t you say something that makes sense for a change?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 11:04 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 1:00 PM fallacycop has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 206 of 305 (372002)
12-24-2006 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by jar
12-24-2006 11:58 AM


Re: yet another nonsense off topic non-response.
Further your example has NOTHING to do with the topic, please try to address the subject of a thread.
I am trying as hard as anyone has tried to do anything. Are you ABSOLUTELY asserting, that NOTHING I have said is relevant to the discussion?
And please do not interpret that as an attempt to mistate or confound this issue. it is not a question intended to mock... it is a question intended to reveal the truth.
Can we slow down, and in a cooperative manner, try to respect the intelligence of each other and make some humble move toward an attempt to understand where we are coming from?
If I have something to give here, it is not in the terms you demand. So on that basis, you have already won. But the boundaries of truth are not so easy to define. Something Anglagard very reasonably conceded at the beginning of this thread. So, I ask you to refrain from attempting to couch it in such narrow terms.
I think we all know what morality is. It's far more than law! Morality goes the the heart of the law; it reveals the intent of the law: Justice!
A district attorney may be able to convict a person based on strict interpretation of the law, and justice still not be served.
And that is what I think you are doing here (and quite succesfully).
When we talk of truth or an example of absolute truth, it's not so easy. We're ultimately talking about all of reality. Truth must reflect what actually is!
As for an attempt at an answer... An example of absolute truth:
There is more to life than the physical and material.
Now how do you prove that besides the ressurection? If a life lived in total submission to the fact is not admissable as 'real' evidence then how do we proceed?
I'll tell you how... We consider the implications if it is not true, and see if they corrospond with our goals and strategies for attaining those goals.
For example: if we seek justice for humanity, and justice is not something that is real; IOW, it is not part and parcel of the purpose for which the universe was created, then we are only deluding ourselves.
Are justice, mercy, nobility, and all virtue realities?
In my estimation, considering the death of millions throughout history who never had a defense or ability to speak, then if there is no final accounting by some sovereign authority who will balance the scales, then justice is indeed an illusion.
If there is no-one to right the wrongs, then the notion of wrong is meaningless IMO. I don't see how I can conclude otherwise.
So you see? You can label all of this as sophistry or preaching if you want. But if you do, you betray far more than you realize. And even though others may not follow a word that I am saying, that does not mean I have said nothing that is relevant. It just makes me a man of sorrows and loneiness in terms of participation in this forum.
We should be cautious to absolutely condemn others in the manner you do with great frequency. Can we not look deeper into the portrait of reality and see what emerges?
Justice is not something you can prove is absolute, but if it is not, then Katy bar the door, because all hell is going to break loose as men take justice into their own hands.
This is because life without morality (justice) is simply unlivable! And as the Bible states so clearly, it is death! Not just physical death, but Spiritual death resulting in blindeness to God's light.
Jesus did not come into the world to make bad people good! he came into the world to make dead people live. To give the opportunity to those who are dead to God, to become alive to God.
Perhaps this is not meeting the taunt that you have weilded, but will you respect that I have done the best I can to defend my position.
I think that morality is decreasing, not so much in terms of action, but in terms of understanding. The results and actions that follow have yet to play themselves out. But the effect on the attitude and defiance of men now, reveal to me the coming storm.
You might say it's a jungle out there! But I have my eye set on the before and after. It's the only place to look for hope!
Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by jar, posted 12-24-2006 11:58 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by jar, posted 12-24-2006 12:55 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 217 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-24-2006 3:18 PM Rob has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 207 of 305 (372004)
12-24-2006 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Rob
12-24-2006 12:46 PM


Re: yet another nonsense off topic non-response.
I am trying as hard as anyone has tried to do anything. Are you ABSOLUTELY asserting, that NOTHING I have said is relevant to the discussion?
Yes.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 12:46 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 208 of 305 (372006)
12-24-2006 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by fallacycop
12-24-2006 12:26 PM


Re: On Absolutes
Why don`t you say something that makes sense for a change?
I never claimed to speak your language... officer.
But since you don't understand God's... I must suppose from your statement that that means to you, that it does not translate! Nor will you consider learning the language. It's easier to sit and laugh with the others who speak your language and laugh at the guy speaking in tounges foreign to you.
I am tempted here to quote Jesus, but I had better not.
If you'd be willing to meet in the middle and try to see what I am saying with the respect I offer you, then perhaps we could move forward. But you reveal your lack of interest in true discussion, by mocking and throwing stones known to exite and entertain the crowd.
I know where I am...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by fallacycop, posted 12-24-2006 12:26 PM fallacycop has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by ringo, posted 12-24-2006 1:26 PM Rob has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 209 of 305 (372011)
12-24-2006 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Rob
12-24-2006 1:00 PM


Re: On Absolutes
scottness writes:
It's easier to sit and laugh with the others who speak your language and laugh at the guy speaking in tounges foreign to you.
When communicating on a public forum, speak the lingua franca.
Don't speak in foreign tongues.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 1:00 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 1:35 PM ringo has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 210 of 305 (372014)
12-24-2006 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by ringo
12-24-2006 1:26 PM


Re: On Absolutes
When communicating on a public forum, speak the lingua franca.
I agree that this is the difficulty, but thought my point was to reveal that any illusion of neutrality is now exposed.
It is not just theists who are biased.
Thanks for the confirmation!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by ringo, posted 12-24-2006 1:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by ringo, posted 12-24-2006 1:40 PM Rob has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024