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Member (Idle past 863 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Morality Decreasing With Time? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
scottness writes: I agree that this is the difficulty, but thought my point was to reveal that any illusion of neutrality is now exposed. The trouble is that you're not "revealing" anything unless you make sense. So, can you show - in a sensible fashion - that morality is decreasing with time? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5875 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
The trouble is that you're not "revealing" anything unless you make sense. So, can you show - in a sensible fashion - that morality is decreasing with time? The fact that a forum can exist with the participation of members who pretend to be searching for finality of understanding and open to debate, when in fact they exist only to promote a particular interpretation of such, is a perfect example of the increasing tendancy to lack respect for others. And since the golden rule is supposed to (and I agree) sum up the law, then I believe I have shown evidence for my original assertion. The disrespectful and defiant attitude that is predominant in our cynical modern age is my evidence. Morality is not so much action as it is the intent and internal nature of the heart. What do you think?
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The fact that a forum can exist with the participation of members who pretend to be searching for finality of understanding and open to debate, when in fact they exist only to promote a particular interpretation of such, is a perfect example of the increasing tendancy to lack respect for others. What forum are you talking about that is searching for finality of understanding? What does that have to do with the topic?
And since the golden rule is supposed to (and I agree) sum up the law, then I believe I have shown evidence for my original assertion. The topic is morality decreasing over time. Where have you presented evidence that can be examined of morality decreasing over time?
The disrespectful and defiant attitude that is predominant in our cynical modern age is my evidence. What disrespectful and defiant attitude? All that has happened in this thread is that folk continue to ask you for examples of morality decreasing over time and you continue to respond with unsupported allegations. The topic is "Morality Decreasing With Time?" It is fine if you personally think that might be the case. I doubt that anyone has a problem with you holding such a belief. However if you wish to assert that it is a fact or true you need to present some evidence that supports such a position. Just quoting scripture ain't gonna make it. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
scottness writes: Morality is not so much action as it is the intent and internal nature of the heart. What do you think? Here's what Jesus thought:
quote: The righteousness is in the doing.
... since the golden rule is supposed to (and I agree) sum up the law, then I believe I have shown evidence for my original assertion. The Golden Rule says, "Do unto others....", not "Intend unto others...." The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The road to heaven is paved with good deeds. What you have not shown is any evidence that the good deeds are becoming less frequent. What has been shown is that a lot of the bad deeds - e.g. slavery, sexism - are diminishing. Yes, there is disrespect for those who talk and only talk. As Jesus put it:
quote: Edited by Ringo, : Expanded quotation. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5875 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Oh contraire sir. I dearly loved my mom right up till she passed away. She was a gentle loving woman who gave me great gifts of compassion and tolerance.I do indeed think with my mind. How is that a disadvantage? If my mind can clearly see that an emotional condition is clouding its judgement in matters... That's all fine and good Sidelined. I do not question that you believe all of this. But what if I was to say to you, 'Don't give me that ooey gooey nonsense about loving your mother. I want proof that you love your mother. Bring forth the witnesses and show me the money! And don't bother with that, because they are not credible witnesses. I don't believe you love your mother. And nothing you can say can prove to me that you do! Your just making assertions that are not in any way verifiable. And don't give me any emotional examples that you ASSUME or PROJECT on to me, and expect me to relate. That is just avoiding the subject and trying manipulate me into admitting that I understand something I do not! I want a logical argument only... that proves to me you love your mother. Don't let your emotion get in the way! jar... are you listening?
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anglagard Member (Idle past 863 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
The disrespectful and defiant attitude that is predominant in our cynical modern age is my evidence. By this do you mean that a disrespectul and defiant attitude toward authority figures such as King and Pope as expressed in the modern age starting with the Enlightenment and the American Revolution? Does this disrespect trump the decrease in death by preventable disease, starvation, slavery, lack of basic human rights for women and minorities, and indeed even warfare as a percentage of the population in your moral universe? The burning desire to be micromanaged by an authority figure, real or imagined, may be your highest moral good but I hardly think it is an opinion shared by any free-thinking individuals. It may even conflict with others of similar persuasion when they disagree with the identity of the authority figure to be unquestioningly followed. And we know what happens when there is disagreement among authoritarians over the authority figure to be followed -- warfare, disease, starvation, loss of basic human rights, subjugation of women and minorities, etc. Since I do not adhere to any dogma that requires me to hate myself, I do not hate others for the crime of being different. What did Jesus say concerning this attitude? According to my moral code, morality is increasing, not decreasing with time. Have been very busy with family matters, will return next year. If this thread craters by then, still have a few related PNTs up my sleeve.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Are you ABSOLUTELY asserting, that NOTHING I have said is relevant to the discussion? You're a Christian who believes in the power of God... That's all they need to know in order to not like you and to derail your commentary. "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
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Brian Member (Idle past 4985 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
You're a Christian Hmmm, I wonder about this, I really do not think he is a Christian, or at least he isn't fully convinced that Jesus is his saviour.
That's all they need to know in order to not like you I don't think anyone dislikes Rob, but the type of 'christianity' he promotes does inform us that he isn't going to be able to make any rational arguments. Brian.
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You're a Christian who believes in the power of God... That's all they need to know in order to not like you and to derail your commentary. How silly. Many of those replying to him are also Christians that believe in the power of God, so that is obviously unrelated as well as also being totally off topic. The problem is that just like your post, his posts have had NOTHING to do with the topic and like you, he has failed to provide an example of Absolute Truth or Absolute Morality or ANY evidence of "Morality Decreasing With Time." Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
Jar could you present a discussion on absolute morality?
Edited by prophex, : No reason given.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5875 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
If my memory serves me, you and I have been over this ground before.
However, it's worthy of revisiting and relevant to the thread. We may not agree on all the particulars, but can we, with respect... allow each other to make a defense of our position. I don't know how many times I have said it... this is difficult ground for all of us. I think rather than saying the way it is, I'll be mindful to couch it in terms of my own beliefs and interpretation of the issues. We all have much company as to our beliefs, but it's just more respectful to give it as my own opinion. As far as righteousness being in the doing, you are right of course. And in that sense, I don't think the issue is one of external righteousness. I do not deny that in may ways, we are more moral rather than less. I am not saying we are not good people in numerous ways. I am saying that because of that, we have fallen into the trap of self adulation. And that corruption of soul, is the decrease in morality. You talk of womens rights and sexism? It was Christ who had the audacity to speak to the woman at the well, even though she was a Sumaritan and an adulterer. That's a big no-no in terms of the Jewish culture of the day. but He was there to overturn their applecart and show them the Spirit of the law. They had turned it into a public display of outward signs of piety. Those who performed these religious acts and cerimonies the best, were labeled as the righteous. You talk of slavery in terms of racial bigotry, the Bible speaks to slavery in terms of economics (with the exception I will note at the end of the paragraph). It used to be, that if you got in over your head, you didn't file bankruptcy, you righted the wrong with time served. And in some ways this makes much sense. In the case of the Egyptions and the Jews, here you see a case of racial slavery that evolved. What about slavery in terms of sin? We are prisoners of our own making! Jesus came to release us from the justice we deserve. He took responsibility for it, that way none of us can claim we are more righteous than the other. The only hero is the one who can handle that kind of label. Dare I say that I would not want it! it would destroy me, because I know my own heart. Perhaps you think you could handle such fame far better than I. You probably could. But the issue is whether you could handle it flawlessly. Public Relations being what it is, we all need to do some good things to promote our image. The image of the beast is highly gaurded. It is worshipped above all else. It is not even acknowledged as existing for fear of judgement of our neighbor. I have admitted to my true nature, and uncovered the image I once protected and look how some of you have judged me. But it is already judged and in need of being forgiven. I think you are taking Jesus words out of context by excluding all the available information. What you offered was true, but must be put together into a broader puzzle. Consider the words of our Lord:
Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. As for good deeds Ringo:
Luke 18:18-30 18 A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'" 21 "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said. 22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 23 When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. 24 Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." I know what you will likely say Ringo, and if not you then possibly jar... 'Jesus is talking about money and not worldviews'. And He is, in order to make a spiritual point. And it is that denial that Jesus is speaking about! Public Relations being what it is, we all do some good things to promote our image. The image of the beast is highly gaurded. It is worshipped above all else. Our most valuable possesion is our self image and the worldview we hold that anchors that illusion! It's true condition is not even acknowledged as existing for fear of judgement by our neighbor. And rightly so... ...I have admitted to my true nature, and uncovered the image I once protected and look how some of you have judged me. No more fig leaves... I'm naked and exposed. I was once rich in Spirit, but am now poor. A lowly and despised man of honesty, who is perceived as threatening the idols you have made of yourselves. As for my own image, I have given it over to Christ. And that is weakness to this crowd, with it's catcalls and heckling. And that is the beauty of Jesus... He speaks to the woman at the well, not in terms of condemnation, but in terms of salvation from what is already acknowledged. She admitted that the man she was living with, was not her husband. She was honest about herself and was able to handle the shame. So Jesus words were 'good news' in a world that condemns the so called unrighteous. In todays secular world, the 'real' nature of morality has been uprooted in exchange for the external goodness we project. And the better we are... the higher the danger of selfrighteousness. Shame has been labeled a threat to self esteem. In one of His books, Lewis said, (paraphrased from memory) "Remember when we were back on earth, and there were things too hot to touch? shame is like that! Like a hot drink that will nourish you if you handle it carefully, but handle it any other way, and it will scald."
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Hmmm, I wonder about this, I really do not think he is a Christian, or at least he isn't fully convinced that Jesus is his saviour. How have you deduced this? I'm not arguing with you because I'm usually so busy responding to posts directed to me, that I rarely get a chance to read other people's posts. From what I have read, he seems to make sense and that Jesus is his Saviour.
I don't think anyone dislikes Rob, but the type of 'christianity' he promotes does inform us that he isn't going to be able to make any rational arguments. Rob? Are we talking about Rob or Scottness? Or is Scottness Rob's alias? "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1493 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Morality is not so much action as it is the intent and internal nature of the heart. What do you think?
That actions speak louder than words, which is why a Lawful Good Human Paladin, a Chaotic Neutral Elf Ranger, and a Neutral Evil Half-Orc Rogue can all be in the same party. At the end of the day, the villagers aren't going to be concerned that the Paladin fought the goblins for the glory of Heironymous, the Ranger fought them to impress the mayor's daughter, and the Rogue fought them for treasure and the thrill of killing. That the goblins were exterminated from the surrounding hills and will no longer steal cattle and harass travelers is sufficient reason for the villagers to laud the adventurers as heroes. That someone did the right thing for the wrong reason might make them a bad person, and potentially someone to watch out for in the future (because a habit of doing the right thing for the wrong reason pretty quickly becomes doing the wrong things for the wrong reason), but it doesn't make their actions morally wrong.
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4137 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
But what if I was to say to you, 'Don't give me that ooey gooey nonsense about loving your mother. I want proof that you love your mother. Bring forth the witnesses and show me the money! And don't bother with that, because they are not credible witnesses. I don't believe you love your mother. And nothing you can say can prove to me that you do!
i could do that, i believe they have tests that show the chemecal changes in the brain from the emotions of love, hate, lust,etc
Your just making assertions that are not in any way verifiable. And don't give me any emotional examples that you ASSUME or PROJECT on to me, and expect me to relate. That is just avoiding the subject and trying manipulate me into admitting that I understand something I do not! I want a logical argument only... that proves to me you love your mother. Don't let your emotion get in the way!
sorry this post shows you really don't deserve any respect from your fellow posters, don't you know you only get repsect when you show it? the fact is no one repects people who post scripture as an argument or people who make absurd posts about something such as what i quoted, i've seen it before and its still a hopeless arguement
jar... are you listening?
do you listen to what you say? i'm not sure you even bother
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4137 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
ou're a Christian who believes in the power of God... That's all they need to know in order to not like you and to derail your commentary.
thats BS and you know it, i like christians, i don't like overbaring, "i'm right no matter what!" type of people, that think they can win a debate by drowning the other person out with garbage this is on both sides, but mostly i see on the fundie side, i find it insulting that you would assume this lie you posted is true of everyone, if anyone at all
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