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Author Topic:   The Results are in...There is a God! - What now?
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 76 of 159 (372010)
12-24-2006 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Phat
12-24-2006 12:56 PM


Re: Worship God?
Phat writes:
If I had a fishie and I gave my fish free will to be able to jump out of the confines of the living environment that I provided for him, would I scold him if he lay gasping for air on the table next to the tank?
No. You wouldn't scold him, and that's my point.
If you give your fishie an environment that he can jump out of, you don't fry him when he does.
You help him.
And then you fix your screw-up.

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This message is a reply to:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 77 of 159 (372020)
12-24-2006 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Phat
12-24-2006 12:56 PM


Re: Worship God?
Phat writes:
If I had a fishie and I gave my fish free will to be able to jump out of the confines of the living environment that I provided for him, would I scold him if he lay gasping for air on the table next to the tank?
Hmmm... I think you parable goes completely counter of your point. The fish is incapable of understanding the ramifications of his actions. Because your vantage point allows you greater knowledge and control of the situation you are the responsible entity - not the fish. This is a philosophic problem.
phat writes:
These same folks would then have no room to blame God for the evils and misfortunes that plague society.
To blame god for the evils and misfortunes that plague society is superstition.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 159 (372057)
12-24-2006 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by ringo
12-24-2006 12:13 PM


Re: Worship God?
God gives us free will because He wants us to choose Him freely and of our own faith, else we're just mindless drones.
Sure He sets limits on just how freely we can use our will, but that is nothing more than any government does. He gives us the choice because He realizes that a forced confession is no good. He needs to know that we really DO love Him.
I mean, look at the people in the world who do not accept God into their lives. If they were simply forced to follow Him anyway, imagine all the "false" souls that would make it into Heaven. Free will is just another test... remember, Job?
He gives us a choice. Choose the left path, or the right path. But, He says, be warned that the left path is filled with sorrow and tragedy and ends with your own eternal suffering. Really, He gives us all the information that's needed to follow Him, and being concious beings, it is up to us to follow it .
J0N

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 12-24-2006 12:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 159 (372058)
12-24-2006 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by iceage
12-24-2006 2:02 PM


Re: Worship God?
Because your vantage point allows you greater knowledge and control of the situation you are the responsible entity - not the fish.
But God gave us all the rules and information necessary to keep our asses in the tank. If we still decided to jump out, that's our problem!
Imagine you buy a bookcase in a box. It has instructions for assembly. Sure, the manufacturer has greater knowledge of the precise methods involved, and how they made the wood, etc. But to get to the finished product, you just have to assemble it and don't need that extra know-how. There is a book, in the box (not to put on the shelf), but to read through so that you can properly assemble the book case. Now, if you choose not to follow the instructions, and end up with a hole in the back and 45 shelves, whose fault is that?
God is the manufacturer; our lives are the bookcase. The finished product is the eternal life we can have in Heaven with God. Now, all we need is the instruction book... wait, we already have it: The Bible. If we screw it up, it's our own fault, and not God's.
J0N

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by fallacycop, posted 12-24-2006 5:44 PM Jon has replied
 Message 83 by Vacate, posted 12-24-2006 10:57 PM Jon has replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 80 of 159 (372059)
12-24-2006 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Jon
12-24-2006 5:31 PM


Re: Worship God?
Imagine you buy a bookcase in a box. It has instructions for assembly. Sure, the manufacturer has greater knowledge of the precise methods involved, and how they made the wood, etc. But to get to the finished product, you just have to assemble it and don't need that extra know-how. There is a book, in the box (not to put on the shelf), but to read through so that you can properly assemble the book case. Now, if you choose not to follow the instructions, and end up with a hole in the back and 45 shelves, whose fault is that?
If that is the case, where is the instruction book to know god? (Don`t even say the Bible cause that cannot possibly be it)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Jon, posted 12-24-2006 5:31 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 159 (372091)
12-24-2006 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by U can call me Cookie
04-12-2006 9:24 AM


Lay in the bed you made or fix it
While I cannot say for certain how I'd react (I don't think many of us honestly can), I feel that it wouldn't really make a difference to me. I've made the decision to live my life regardless of whether or not God exists. Simply due to...well, look at the state of the world, not much happiness, cheer and goodwill to go around; at least not what you would expect if a benevolent God was in charge.
If God is in control, is that the sort of God you would want to worship? Should God actually be worshipped at all?
People living the way they want to is how this world got jacked up to begin with. If you want to change the world then align your will with His and teach others the benefits of doing the same. If you still don't want to do that, then at least don't complain about if you're not going to do anything to remedy it.
Aside from which, worship doesn't merely entail us bowing down in reverence. Reverence is good, but I think God is pretty clear that He wants a relationship with you. Just loving Him with alacrity and casting your cares and worries upon Him is a great act of oblation.
But I think its wise that you recognize just because having God with us won't necessarily change the behavior of anyone. God delivered the Jews out of Egypt and physically and spiritually fed them. It didn't take long for them to relapse.
I've always said that a relationship with God is no different from any other. Human relationships take effort on our part to keep the fire stoked. Constant attentiveness is needed to nourish any relationship. And meeting God for the first time is like newlyweds who are on fire for one another. But the day-in, day-out begins to wear down the immediate infatuation. Unless there is work involved and the bedrock established upon the rock, it will dissolve into nothingness. That's why all of our relationships, physical or spiritual, need regular maintenance. A relationship with God is no different, according to the parable of the sower.
"A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop”a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. He who has ears, let him hear."
The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables:
But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."
-Matthew 13:2-23
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typos

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by U can call me Cookie, posted 04-12-2006 9:24 AM U can call me Cookie has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 82 of 159 (372095)
12-24-2006 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by ringo
12-24-2006 12:13 PM


Re: Worship God?
In this season of giving, we should try to understand what a gift is.
Well it appears that to you, it is an opportunity to say, "Thanks sucker! Now piss off!"
I just see it in a different... shall we say... light.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 12-24-2006 12:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 12-25-2006 1:17 AM Rob has replied

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4600 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 83 of 159 (372100)
12-24-2006 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Jon
12-24-2006 5:31 PM


Re: Worship God?
Jon writes:
Imagine you buy a bookcase in a box. It has instructions for assembly. Sure, the manufacturer has greater knowledge of the precise methods involved, and how they made the wood, etc. But to get to the finished product, you just have to assemble it and don't need that extra know-how. There is a book, in the box (not to put on the shelf), but to read through so that you can properly assemble the book case. Now, if you choose not to follow the instructions, and end up with a hole in the back and 45 shelves, whose fault is that?
Then imagine that the instructions were not written by the inventor. The inventor refuses to update the instructions that he may or may not have written. All the parts are different and its not completely clear what you are trying to build. You thought it was a bookcase, but it more appears to be some twisted form of chess. Most of the important pieces also seem to have been killed off before you even got to play the game.
Don't bother to try reaching the complaint department, the number has been disconnected.
Edited by Vacate, : Spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Jon, posted 12-24-2006 5:31 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Jon, posted 12-25-2006 4:05 AM Vacate has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 84 of 159 (372122)
12-25-2006 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Jon
12-24-2006 5:23 PM


Re: Worship God?
Jon writes:
If they were simply forced to follow Him anyway, imagine all the "false" souls that would make it into Heaven.
What makes you think God wants anybody to "follow" Him? (And what would it mean to "follow" Him, anyway? Where is He going?)
And what makes you think He cares what "kind" of souls make it to heaven?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Jon, posted 12-24-2006 5:23 PM Jon has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 85 of 159 (372123)
12-25-2006 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Rob
12-24-2006 10:22 PM


Re: Worship God?
scottness writes:
In this season of giving, we should try to understand what a gift is.
Well it appears that to you, it is an opportunity to say, "Thanks sucker! Now piss off!"
Maybe you shouldn't work so hard at misunderstanding.
I didn't say anything about "thanks". When a gift is freely given, no thanks is expected.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 10:22 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Rob, posted 12-25-2006 1:25 AM ringo has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 86 of 159 (372125)
12-25-2006 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by ringo
12-25-2006 1:17 AM


Re: Worship God?
I didn't say anything about "thanks". When a gift is freely given, no thanks is expected.
I wasn't talking about the benevolence of the giver. It's the reciprocation that is telling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 12-25-2006 1:17 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 87 of 159 (372129)
12-25-2006 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Rob
12-25-2006 1:25 AM


Re: Worship God?
scottness writes:
I wasn't talking about the benevolence of the giver.
Neither was I.
It's the reciprocation that is telling.
Once again, what I'm saying is that with a true "gift", there is no reciprocation - or expectation of it.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Rob, posted 12-25-2006 1:25 AM Rob has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 159 (372145)
12-25-2006 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by fallacycop
12-24-2006 5:44 PM


Re: Worship God?
(Don`t even say the Bible cause that cannot possibly be it)
I already DID say that. And tell me, why cannot that possibly be it?
J0N

This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 159 (372146)
12-25-2006 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Vacate
12-24-2006 10:57 PM


Re: Worship God?
The Bible teaches us that we can reach God through following the instructions that it gives. Instruction booklets promise the same thing: a completed product after following their instructions.
Then imagine that the instructions were not written by the inventor. The inventor refuses to update the instructions that he may or may not have written. All the parts are different and its not completely clear what you are trying to build. You thought it was a bookcase, but it more appears to be some twisted form of chess.
What evidence do you have for ANYTHING you've just said? Where did you gain the information that says you WON'T go to Heaven if you follow God's will as it is written in the Bible?
Tell me, when was the last time you tried to make it into Heaven by following what was written in the Bible? If you did, did you get there or not? The bookcase analogy is different on only one level: you can experience and learn from puting the bookcase together, whereas with the will of God, you only have one chance.
What if you spent $3.4 million on that bookcase? What if it were the LAST one in the store? What if it were so extremely important, you could not live without? Would you take the chance of not following the instructions. Remember, you don't KNOW the instructions are bad, and they claim to be good, so what do you do?
The Bible is most-likely the best instruction book we have, and we have no reason to believe it isn't. God is real, He created us, and He is supremely powerful. Now, if you want to go be with God when you die, then use His instruction booklet, otherwise, find a different thread .
J0N

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Vacate, posted 12-24-2006 10:57 PM Vacate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by RickJB, posted 12-25-2006 6:57 AM Jon has replied
 Message 93 by Rob, posted 12-25-2006 12:11 PM Jon has not replied
 Message 124 by Vacate, posted 12-28-2006 12:41 AM Jon has not replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 90 of 159 (372151)
12-25-2006 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Jon
12-25-2006 4:05 AM


Re: Worship God?
Jon writes:
The Bible is most likely the best instruction book we have...
Oh really? I'm pretty sure people of other faiths will have a differing opinion on this.....
So why is the Bible most likely the best "instruction book"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Jon, posted 12-25-2006 4:05 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Jon, posted 12-25-2006 9:05 AM RickJB has replied

  
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