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Author Topic:   Morality Decreasing With Time?
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 241 of 305 (372119)
12-25-2006 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by ringo
12-25-2006 12:57 AM


Re: On Absolutes
Nothing in your post addresses the issue.
I quoted Jesus saying that what we do determines whether we go to heaven or hell. What we are doing, as a human race, is getting better, not worse.
Well then... enjoy your time in heaven Ringo! You earned it cause your a treat! A real example to all of us. God bless you for saving me! I now see the light! What would I have done without you?
My savior and friend, I bow in your honor!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by ringo, posted 12-25-2006 12:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 12-25-2006 1:22 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 242 of 305 (372120)
12-25-2006 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by ringo
12-25-2006 12:57 AM


Re: On Absolutes
Remember the cowboy?
I tried to find it again but gave up. My current avatar is better to serve my purpose, but it would have been great for that last post!
Merry Christmas! I don't like you, but i admire your spunk!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by ringo, posted 12-25-2006 12:57 AM ringo has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 243 of 305 (372124)
12-25-2006 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Rob
12-25-2006 1:01 AM


Re: On Absolutes
scottness writes:
God bless you for saving me!
You're mistaken yet again. I have no power to save you since you're so hell-bent on being hell-bent. The best I can do is put in a good word for you at the Pearly Gates. (Unfortunately, I can't put in a good word for you with the admins - it seems pretty likely that your latest incarnation is not long for the world of EvC.)
I now see the light!
Obviously not.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Rob, posted 12-25-2006 1:01 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Rob, posted 12-25-2006 1:33 AM ringo has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 244 of 305 (372126)
12-25-2006 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by ringo
12-25-2006 1:22 AM


Re: On the decline of morality
From an anonymous participant in EVC via email:
BTW...don't tell the evc people...but I had a shock today in the moral
decline category. The ad online which popped up for the Sheraton Hotels
had
two men playing and cuddling on the hotel bed in pj's...right on my
screen.
That is a new one for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 12-25-2006 1:22 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 12-25-2006 1:40 AM Rob has replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 245 of 305 (372127)
12-25-2006 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Buzsaw
12-24-2006 9:33 AM


Past Definitions of Morality
In providing examples concerning the supposed modern downfall of morality:
Buzsaw writes:
Global terrorism against innocent victims (crime) on the increase.
Interesting, I guess Atilla the Hun was just a little rambunctious when he and his followers actually managed to cause a decrease in the world population through pillage and disease.
Theft increase.
Read any Dickens lately? Also, during the fundie paradise known as the Dark Ages, one could not travel without heavy escort due to theft (if lucky).
Deviant sex practices traditional among most cultures on increase.
Read any Tacitus or Suetonius lately? Those Greeks and Romans sure had a lot of children performing what many would today call "unnatural acts."
Global youth gang crime on increase.
Read that Dickens yet?
Morality in government on decline including political corruption et al.
Compared to who? Do you actually argue that Clinton and Bush are worse than Caligula and Nero? Did you know that in the 120 years after Marcus Aurelius, Rome had 67 emperors -- 4 died a natural death.
Drug usage and related moral/crime problems.
Drugs actually have to be made illegal before they become a crime. As to morality, people have used drugs since the dawn of civilization.
Corporate crime on increase.
Read any Sinclair Lewis lately? Do you know where the term 'robber baron' comes from? You have to actually have corporations, as opposed to the mob in whatever form, in order to have corporate crime. Corporations are a modern phenomenon.
8. Identity theft and security breach due to technology becoming major global problem.
9. Internet crimes, porn, et al corrupting youth, churchmen and other.
Of course these are modern. Anyone salted the earth lately?
I could go on and on, just name your time and place and I could easily counterargue these assertions. Unfortunately, won't be back until after this thread craters.
Though we modern Christians abhor slavery, most cultures of human history did not see this as immoral including Judiasm. Islam and other culotures/religions still don't regard it as immoral.
Do you think it is moral? Also, before one denigrates non-Christian cultures, please feel free to name any states that permit slavery other than the half-dozen Arab nations that still do.
Concerning death by stoning, Buzsaw:
This is not an example of declining morals as per topic. This is simply a cultural matter regarding modes of capital punishment. It did have some benefits in crime deterant et al.
Wow! how about peeling off their skin like the Aztecs, would that be a good deterrent? Death by a thousand cuts? Buried alive? Not seen lately as policy.
Most modern industrialized nations do not even have capital punishment.
Throughout human history, peoples and cultures have had wars, migration et al. This is not a matter of morality perse. It is relative to many factors in national and human matters.
The question is about increase and decrease of morality through time. My argument concerning war deaths as a total percentage of world population still stands.
jar writes:
Every indicator is that morality is increasing, not decreasing.
You have thus far failed to substantiate this.
Here is a start. Like I said, anyplace, any significant time period, name your poison. You may actually be able to discover a place where what is commonly known as morality has decreased (hint-North Korea). However, my argument stands when taken over all recorded time and over the entire surface of the globe.
Also, why no word about starvation and disease? human rights? women's rights? minority rights? Lack of cannibalism and human sacrifice?
Stacking the deck?
I'll be back.
Edited by anglagard, : bit o' clarity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Buzsaw, posted 12-24-2006 9:33 AM Buzsaw has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 246 of 305 (372131)
12-25-2006 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Rob
12-25-2006 1:33 AM


Re: On the decline of morality
scottness writes:
The ad online which popped up for the Sheraton Hotels had two men playing and cuddling on the hotel bed in pj's...right on my screen.
That seems to indicate an improvement in morality - a recognition of same-sex couples.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Rob, posted 12-25-2006 1:33 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Rob, posted 12-25-2006 1:42 AM ringo has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 247 of 305 (372133)
12-25-2006 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by ringo
12-25-2006 1:40 AM


Re: On the decline of morality
That seems to indicate an improvement in morality - a recognition of same-sex couples.
My point...EXACTLY!
Thanks Ringo. And Merry Christmas to you too.
Now that's a gift!
Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 12-25-2006 1:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by ringo, posted 12-25-2006 1:46 AM Rob has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 248 of 305 (372136)
12-25-2006 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Rob
12-25-2006 1:42 AM


Re: On the decline of morality
scottness writes:
That seems to indicate an improvement in morality - a recognition of same-sex couples.
My point...EXACTLY!
So you agree that morality is increasing. Good.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Rob, posted 12-25-2006 1:42 AM Rob has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 249 of 305 (372170)
12-25-2006 11:52 AM


It's like I come on here and noone can argue about the real thing. There is no truth here, just a bunch of idiots who have taken ignorance in faith arguing against another bunch of idiots who have taken ignorance in science.
All of you are perfect together as you can argue with each other on these simple concepts until this website closes.

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-25-2006 12:03 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 271 by nator, posted 12-26-2006 8:32 AM joshua221 has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 250 of 305 (372171)
12-25-2006 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by joshua221
12-25-2006 11:52 AM


Enlightened guru
It's like I come on here and noone can argue about the real thing. There is no truth here, just a bunch of idiots who have taken ignorance in faith arguing against another bunch of idiots who have taken ignorance in science.
Do you implicate yourself or are you the enlightened exception?
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : Added a question mark

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by joshua221, posted 12-25-2006 11:52 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 251 of 305 (372175)
12-25-2006 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by jar
12-24-2006 11:47 PM


Re: Communication and Morality
jar writes:
Certainly.
Do you have any indication that it is higher than it was during the 1800s? Higher than during Imperial Rome? Higher than during Feudal Europe or Japan under the Shogunates?
So far all you have done Buz is make wild assertions and have presented not one piece of evidence.
Well, my friend, I've listed some chanllenges for you to refute. Which and how many of my points would you care to apply to the 1800s so as to show that my conclusion is flawed?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by jar, posted 12-24-2006 11:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by jar, posted 12-25-2006 12:37 PM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 252 of 305 (372176)
12-25-2006 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Rob
12-24-2006 11:31 PM


Re: Communication and Morality
Thanks very much. I pray that somehow we Biblicalists may edify one another and evangelize secularists into God's kingdom.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 11:31 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Rob, posted 12-25-2006 12:44 PM Buzsaw has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 253 of 305 (372178)
12-25-2006 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Buzsaw
12-25-2006 12:19 PM


Re: Communication and Morality
All you have provided is assertions, bare unsupported assertions.
How do you propose we measure the actual difference between crime at the various points in history?
The point is that the things you mentioned are simply not measurable. There are no accurate statistics.
But there is something we can measure to see if Morality is decreasing or increasing.
Do most people consider slavery immoral now?
Do most people consider interracial marriage immoral?
Do most people consider murder by "Princes" immoral?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Buzsaw, posted 12-25-2006 12:19 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Rob, posted 12-25-2006 1:49 PM jar has replied
 Message 262 by Buzsaw, posted 12-25-2006 9:35 PM jar has replied
 Message 274 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-26-2006 12:02 PM jar has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 254 of 305 (372180)
12-25-2006 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Buzsaw
12-25-2006 12:26 PM


Re: Spirit of the holidays... forgotton in the decline!
I pray that somehow...
It's always a miracle, and a wonderful thing to see! It started so long ago. What a gift!
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
And His Spirit, will be reborn again and again among many, until the end of the age. (that's last part's not in the Bible, but it would fit)
Merry Christmas Buz!
And here's to another year A.D. !
Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Buzsaw, posted 12-25-2006 12:26 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Brian, posted 12-26-2006 6:39 AM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 255 of 305 (372182)
12-25-2006 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by jar
12-25-2006 12:37 PM


The heart of the matter. The decrease of morality in the heart, and the loss of truth
jar writes:
But there is something we can measure to see if Morality is decreasing or increasing.
Do most people consider slavery immoral now?
Do most people consider interracial marriage immoral?
Do most people consider murder by "Princes" immoral?
That's not how it's done in my opinion. That's the reason anglagard started this thread! And I knew when I wrote that 'morality is decreasing' in the other thread that this whole Pandora's box would be opened by the prophets of suspicion (I had hoped not, but in vain). What a charade! But that's what we have to do huh? Play this game... Sometimes it's fun, but that's just my pride talking. The point is, I don't want to whine about it anymore. My hands are dirty and my sleeves are rolled up! Let's do away with the soundbites and punchlines. Most of us are highly intelligent here. So lets do the hard work of actually taking the time to think now and then. This is one of those moments...
It's my job to answer, so that is what I must do.
Well just so you know jar, I do not now play with any illusion that I will satisfy you. That is not possible! It's absolutely impossible without reciprocation... so you win in that regard. My five and three year olds do it all the time. But their ignorace is at least innocent. Instead, I now play this... game, so as to leave here, in the ether, a reply that is respectful of the gravity that such a concept as this deserves.
A Churchillian speech to the public!
It's just my opinion. It is not forced on anyone, so there is no need for being insulted. If it is true and you can accept it, then put it to use. It is offered in the most sincere manner and tone possible, as a deep conviction that I believe is not just useful, but essential, to living with a true understanding of reality.
I plead for you to stop and reflect!
None of these 'relatively' (don't miss that) good and outward signs of purity and virtue that you mention mean anything in terms of absolute proof that we are more moral.
It is the heart that holds the truth of who we are (hidden by fig leaves or not). I can pretend to be all kinds of things, but it does not change what my heart really thinks below the surface of the deep. What lurks in that sea is a monster who's power is in remaing hidden in the darkness; manipulating the ships without the captains knowledge. But it is the Captain who must gard his own vessel. Gaurd your ships you Captains! Who is at the helm?
Gather round countrymen! lend me your ears! Allow me to prophesy to you. Let me speak to you! Stand up and be men of honor! Acknowledge the truth! Hear me on this day we celebrate the birth of our King!
Our 'ambassadors' and 'diplomats' are capable of the most insincere gestures of peace and goodwill toward men. And those pawns only represent the falseness and desperation of our society as a whole to hang on to the illusion of our Greatness! Oh yes ladies and gentleman! We are now so sophisticated in playing our parts in this toyland; this Laodicean empire... that we have neglected the more important matters of the law.
Ringo and I have already covered this ground earlier in the thread, and earlier yet in another. Perhaps you missed it jar? I don't think you miss anything! You just pretend it never happened! Well this isn't toyland jar, and the imapct is not imaginary. This is the heavy stuff! This is the heart of the matter, because it is found in the heart.
Let the man who claims to be King be heard!
Matthew 12:34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
Luke 6:45 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
Matthew 23: 23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. 29 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers! 33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
'What is truth?' Pilot asked.
It is my friend and Lord, who guides my steps in a strange land, where the love of most grows colder and colder.
Just blow it off jar... go have a drink with DrJones and toast to your absolute defiance! Beat up and kill the prophets as your forefathers did. Eat drink and be merry! For yours is the kingdom, the power, and the glory... just not forever.
Either that, or stop hardening your heart. Do not let God's sovereignty harden you. His sovereingty and our demise is for our benefit. As John the Baptist said, 'I must decrease, so that he may increase.'
Is that enough for one post? My throat is bleeding and my soapbox is straining!
Edited by scottness, : I only forgot to paste half the reply. No big deal
Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by jar, posted 12-25-2006 12:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by jar, posted 12-25-2006 2:42 PM Rob has replied
 Message 259 by AdminAsgara, posted 12-25-2006 3:49 PM Rob has not replied

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