The Results are in...There is a God! - What now?

It's up to them. If they want to assemble their bookcase using fooseball table instructions, they are free to do so. Just don't let them go crying about it when they can't figure out where to put the ball.It's a personal choice, really. If someone else wants to argue for a different instruction book, they can. But in the end, only the manufacturer can tell us which booklet was supposed to come with the set .J0N

I'm having a simmilarly difficult time understanding that about Brian as well.Hard to work with closed minds. As some jewish Rabbi said, they strain out a gnat, and swallow a Camel. Which reminds me... I resemble that remark as well. We should all be careful.

And that is a complete and whole argument! The logical argument and the dramatic illustration. Makes good sense to good hearts.Jon, I was somehow under the impression you were antagonistic to theism. I really must pay more attention, my paranoia is still kickin.Shh! don't tell anyone... but they're trying to kill me.

You smile at the thought now, but wait until the car pulls up in front of Krishna Manufacturing, Inc.__

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Sure. The Tao Te Ching.All sane people know this. __

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

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The supreme good is like water,
which benefits all of creation
without trying to compete with it.
It gathers in unpopular places.
Thus it is like the Tao.

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Merry Christmas Archer.

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Look to this day, For yesterday is already a dream. And tomorrow only a vision. But today We lived, makes every Yesterday a dream of Happiness and every tomorrow A vision of hope. Look well there to This day.

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The highest and lowest notes escape our hearing
The largest and smallest forms escape our perception
The Tao exists beyond our ability to see and discuss
The Tao nourishes everything and brings it to fulfillment.

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Merry Christmas, Alacrity.____Edited by Archer Opterix, : translation.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

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The highest good is not to seek to do good,
but to allow yourself to become it.
The ordinary person seeks to do good things,
and finds that they can not do them continually.

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Merry Christmas all

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Just as you won't be crying if it turns out you are wrong, yes?Heh. I never cease to be amused at the way folk of faith like yourself are utterly incapable of considering the possibility that it is they who worship a false God.

Um... I'm agnostic/atheist. But you cannot call the God false, because the entire topic of this thread is that He is real.

I'd like to think that I am quite open minded. I am happy to consider any well constructed argument as being plausible. The problem is that most 'Christians' don't really know what an argument is, they think that they can say anything without supporting evidence and then get all upset because some of us keep asking for something substantial to support their claims!Also, a word of caution, do not be so open-minded that your brain falls out. I've seen this happen so many times to fundies over the years, so be careful.Brian.

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3) Interdependence...when it means communion, community, and cooperation, is healthy IMHO.

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So...the all-powerful, all knowing God is [i]dependent[/[] upon humans for something?

Well, I think I understand that well enough Brian. What is frustrating is that God's well constructed arguments are so well constructed, that they are called parables. We must start with the basics and move forward. He does exist, and He does reveal Himself (I'll explain more in a moment).And since He exists, and in terms of the question of this thread 'Now What?'... I think the most important thing is to get that news out there.A lot of this is perceived as preaching. And of course it is in the way we use the term 'preaching', but there is something missing in that definition. I am of course speaking from the point of view that Christianity is not just one of the many tools in the pluralistic toolbox that a person can choose to work best for them, but that it is indeed reality!So coming form that vantage point (the exclusivity of truth and all), when I here people asking for evidence, or well constructed arguments, I am disarmed. first you must accept you are a sinner in need of a savior. And that is lowly and offensive to people. Start low, then work your way up.When someone comes a long like me, trying to share that God really has spoken, my arguments are like algebra given to 1st graders; with the exception that they are not happy that someone is coming along and reminding them that they know nothing. A first grader is willing (in most cases) to admit they have no knowledge. But adults have vast amounts of knowledge and experience. They don't like being told to go back to school. And that the school they went to has taught them garbage.So it's not that the arguments are lacking, it's that I am often left with no recourse but to give the simplistic argument (which they assume they moved past already with precision) because they cannot understand the more complex arguments.so if I give the good stuff, it is perceived in the same way a 1st grader perceive algebra... "HUH?'. It makes no sense! but if I give the basics, they are insulted!Pride is the enemy of understanding.God reveals Himself through the moral law. First as an impossible demand on Mt Sinia that was so strigent, that elaborate sacrifices had to be performed to atone for the inability for the people to actually live out such righteousness. Then, He revealed Himself through his Son, and displayed a life layed down in complete submission to that law.No one can prove it to you but God. But you have to be willing to reopen the mind to what was abandoned as a fairy tale. I can relate to that Brian. I was raised Christian, and had abandoned the faith almost entirely. I even clled myself an atheist for some years, but I don't know if I was really honest there. I kept coming back to the conclusion that there just has to be something.It was a hard thing to do. To sit there and allow people to preach to me again (albeit in a much wiser church) things that appeared from my perspective to be rediculous. I do not like to be manipulated. I was very suprised to see the pieces of the puzzle coming together. I continue to tear it apart, and look under every piece. The puzzle remains, but the picture of Christ grows larger.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

and Schraf writes: No... because He is so secure, complete, happy, wise, and in comunion with Himself already, and because he is generous and good, He wants to share that same Godliness with beings that are not infinite or Godly like He is.Pretty amazing really! A GOd who is all powerful and all knowing, wanting to freely give to us, that which only He can handle. And the ensuing relationship with Him is what allows us to tap into that power (energy) that will propel us into the infinite and blissful existence of His.We only have to learn to trust Him with what appears to be the blind allegiance that Jesus modelled for us.It's like a kid being tempted by his peers to try drugs for the first time. Does he choose to trust his parents by honoring (worshipping) them in this situation? Or does he honor his friends and decide to bow to them?

Phat writes:

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3) Interdependence...when it means communion, community, and cooperation, is healthy IMHO.

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No...(snip)

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So, you have just refuted Phat's contention that the sort of dependence we have with God is healthy.It must be an unhealthy kind, according to you.