War on Christmas

I wish you and your loved ones a very merry Christmas! And a happy new year. One of the most wonderful experiences I had in Thailand was celebrating the western New Year with a Muslim Thai, who talked on and on about how in his country Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, Jews and all other religions enjoyed harmony by each celebrating each other's holidays in the appropriate way. "It is the the Thai way" he said.So my Christmas wish, may all of us celebrate the holidays in the Thai way. Everywhere. Merry Christmas, EvC forum!

The Thai way makes a lot of sense to me. Count me in.Joyous Yuletide--and thanks, Lith, for sharing.__

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Two Holydays dedicated to ex-soldiers? (dead or alive)
this country sure has had way too many wars...

Well, even if I am inaccurate in what happened at Wal*Mart, maybe we can illustrate how nutty of a job these left-wingers can be (I’ll most likely be told what I believe and how I’m evil and want all this bad stuff to happen to a bunch of people, which I don’t) But that’s just how the nutjobs seem to operate. I have no idea where it came from and it was obviously a (bad?) joke. Ok, and I have no sources either. But what I heard was that Wal*Mart employees were forbidden to say Merry Christmas and that they must use Happy Holidays, or something similar that is non-specific to any religion. This was a response to a complaint from a non-christian being wished Merry Christmas and being “offended” by it. Maybe it never happened, I don’t know, but if that is what happened then I stand by my claim that it is fucking retarded. What this “War on Christmas” email exemplifies is the crapola that us rightwing nutjobs think is retarded. The be-careful-not-to-offend-anyone mentality gets so insane that Merry Christmas is offensive and banned. Merry Christmas is not offensive and it is not ”good manners’ to say Happy Holidays. If you’re offended by Merry Christmas then you’re either trying to be offended, lying about the offense, of too sensitive to deserve any respect. Wishing someone a Merry Christmas is not assuming they are the same religion as you. How many non-christians celebrate christmas every year? Lets just say ”lots’. You don’t have to be christian to celebrate christmas so there is no assumtion necessary in the greeting.Here’s my reply from that thread . My Reply was:

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Actually, really good manners is to try and not to force you views on strangers.

You mean like forcing the view that greeters shouldn't say Merry Christmas, if you are saying that is bad manners then I agree.
Wishing someone a Merry Christmas isn't forcing your views on them. Conversly, demanding that people don't use the phrase 'Merry Christmas' IS forcing your views on people.

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How is wishing someone a Merry Christmas forcing your view, or anything at all, on them. The only force that I heard about was that people were forced to NOT say Merry Christmas. That is forcing your view on someone, forbidding them to do something. Responding to a “perceived” force with “actual” force. Is it denial or is it really nuttery? This is a great example of the left-wing nutjobs that I am talking about. Claiming that I don’t care about people who aren’t christian and telling me what my view is. Its really annoying and only makes me dislike liberals even more. If the left and the right want to get along then this is one of the things that the left needs to cut out. I’ll reply one at a time: Why do you see it that way? I don’t see how this is forcing religious views. If a Mexican says “Hola” to me am I suppose to get offended because he is forcing his language on me? If Wal*Mart forced their employees to say “Merry Christmas” then that would be fucking retarded too. Seriously? That’s pretty impractical and unnecessary. Its impractical because it’s a greeting . they aren’t there to have a conversation with you to determine your religious beliefs. Are you suggesting they use a pre-greeting greeting? Whats wrong with just using whatever greeting they’re conformable with. I wouldn’t be offended walking into a Wal*Mart and getting wished a Happy Hanukah . Its unneccesary because people shouldn’t be offended by it in the first place. What if you want to? You really think that is bad manners? If so, we really have different opinions on manners, and admittedly, mine are a lot looser.But yeah, religion is between you and god (unless you’re evangelical), but that doesn’t mean that we can’t even mention it. Or that we can’t use a greeting with a religious connotation. And Merry Christmas isn’t even necessarily christian so the connotation shouldn’t even be there. And that is what I think is fucking retarded. I have to watch what I say because of a “few crazy people”. Fuck that. And fuck them if they are offended. Part of my point exactly, Merry Christmas is not necessarily a christian greeting. Another part of my point, even if it is christian, it isn’t even offensive. Yeah, I’d be willing to bet that the whole walmart thing didn’t even happen but snopes said it did so it must be true Well, how about now? Wait a minute, you’re gonna lose respect for my other (respectable) posts because of that one (disrespectful) post? Does it really affect my other posts that much? I just like insulting liberals. I think its fun and its easy to get a rise out of them. Some of the stuff I post on the internets is total bullshit. Semi-trolling, engaging people. I hope you can tell when I’m being serious and when I’m not, but probably not always. The insulting stuff only comes out because of the anonymity, or if I’m pissed off because of something in RL. I do find liberals to be really annoying though. I don’t really know anything about the “War on Christmas” stuff. The only thing I really heard was that Wal*Mart employees are not allowed to say Merry Christmas. That kinda pisses me off, if it is true. Other than that I haven’t heard much nor have I really discussed it. This discussion and the one in the humor thread is 99% of what I’ve said about it, ever.

that's hilarious. I believe you, no joke. I could believe that WalMart never even said it. It is on snops though, did you see that? Honestly, I haven't seen much of a War on Christmas. Here, is the most discussion I've had about it.But I wouldn't say it doesn't exists, at all. People are tying to make it more inclusive, less offensive, and less chrisian specific, I dunno if that's a War but something is going on.

I responded to this message with a General Reply and am using this message so you will be notified that I have responded.I quoted a few other people in that General Reply but I'm not going to go through and do this for everyone. Hopefully they see this/it.

Typical right-wing doesn't-get-it rant Technically the word "Christmas" means Christ Mass and it (the word) is nothing BUT christian.

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Christ·mas -noun
1. the annual festival of the Christian church commemorating the birth of Jesus: celebrated on December 25 and now generally observed as a legal holiday and an occasion for exchanging gifts.

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So you DO agree that it is a religious greeting and has not been secularized as the rest of your rant suggests. You can't have it both ways, as that is the logical fallacy of equivocation.It is either devoid of all religious connotations or it is a religious greeting. Which is precisely WHY saying "happy holidays" is a preferable greeting, it covers all the bases and doesn't offend anyone -- except those that want to force people to use "merry christmas" ... and that take offense at not being recognized for being the blatant on-the-sleeve christian they want everyone to see. I'm not talking about walmart but Bill O'Riley and his ilk that have created this whole false "war" by playing up every little slight to christians they can find (walmart being one, the Daily Show being another) whether factual or not (Bill O'Riley has never been hampered by facts before, why start now?).It's the old poor martyred christian guilt trip passive aggressive non-sense, and it is being repeated year after year NOT because of "politically correct" leftwing "nutjobs" but because of certified nutjobs like O'Riley and his ilk that want to feel smug, secure and superior about being poor persecuted christians.It is happening every year NOT because people are "outlawing" celebrations of christmas but because people like O'Riley want to make "merry christmas" with all it's religious connotations (and false christian baggage) the "greeting" of record (not choice). "Hola" is hello. Secular. It is not "have a merry christ mass" - a wishing of a merry time at a specifically christian religious ceremony in honor of a specifically christian icon.AND because it is just one more example in a LONG line, where christianity has tried to take over celebrations of other cultures and other religious celebrations and bury them while pretending to be the reason for celebrations that are going on.It's more like white folk complaining of discrimination than any real "war" on "christmas" imh(ysa)o. What non-christians celebrate is family and feasts, and exchange of gifts and good wishes ... things that "belong" to no religion, but to friendship, sense of community, and (real) family values.What many non-christians celebrate is a yule time festival with a yule tree, mistletoe, wreaths and decorations ... these things are NOT christian, and have nothing to do with christianity (but calling this celebration "christmas" is trying to force a christian patina onto a non-christian celebration - the proper name is yuletime).What some non-christians also celebrate is a myth about an elf king and magic flying reindeer, another childhood story, much like Hansel and Gretal, that we outgrow as we become older, more educated and more aware of the realities of the world. The name of this "king" is Santa Claus - a name derived from the dutch colonists Sinter Klaus, or Saint Nick, a mythological character from pre-medieval (greek) christianity, but "Santa Claus" has evolved\morphed over the years to be a not-necessarily-christian mythology of magic and wonder. Recent additions are "Rudolf" - a reindeer that not only flies, but has a curious mutation on his nose that makes it glow like a run-away nuclear reactor. These elements of elfs and magic are decidedly NOT christian eh?What exactly does this holiday have to do with christianity?(1) Celebration of the birth of christ?Christ (if a real person) was born in late march or early april, based on "evidence" in the bible. Is "celebrating" it on the 25th of December just an arbitrary thing to do with no basis in reality?No. NOBODY celebrates a birthday 3 or 4 months out of synch with reality. The real reason to celebrate at that time is to "cover" (ie wage war) on the existing yule time celebrations.This is part of the "war" that christianity has waged on other beliefs for many many centuries. There are many examples of this kind of thing. Bill O'Riley is just a more recent example of the "war" being waged BY christianity.(2) It has "Saint Nick" in it?The feast of Saint Nick is December 6th.
Saint Nicholas - WikipediaConclusion: December 25th has NOTHING to do with christianity. NADA. ZILCH. ZIP. ZERO.So don't tell me that a greeting wishing me to hold a mass in honor of christian icon that has been set up specifically to subvert a winter holiday has anything to do with these elements of yule time celebrations, when it is really part of the christian "war" on yuletime.That this holiday has anything to do with christianity is a lie. Let's be honest about it and lose the false greeting as well. Merry Yuletime. Happy Holidays. Joyous Solestice. Whatever. If you still think that then you are blind, deaf, in denial, and willfully ignorant.Personally I think the "holiday" has become a celebration of american crassness, ignorance, hypocrisy, corporate greed, blatant consumerism, and one-up-manship displays.If you want to say that christianity = crassness I won't stop you, but I would think that honest christians would (a) stop telling the lie that "christ" was born on dec 25th and (b) stop complaining about some false "war" on christianity.Enjoy.

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maybe we can illustrate how nutty of a job these left-wingers can be

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Who are the "left-wingers", exactly?

No, not a joke: it was propaganda meant to stoke the demonization of non-Christians and the maintenance of a Christian sense of persecution. Like all propagandists, the author depends on it being mindlessly repeated by true believers like...you. Christians have been powerful players in the Western world for about 1700 years now. You'd think they'd drop that pathetic victim act, but I won't hold my breath--that'll happen about the time the Vatican sells off its treasures to feed the hungry, and the televangelists spend their income stream on healing the sick.

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nah its mostly the nutty right-wingers who want more persicution of thier beliefs, so they can whine about how unfair people are well as a walmart employee i can without a doubt tell you that what people are circulating, is 100% grade-A Bullshitwalmart would never force anyone to say what they don't want to say, the fact is there are 3 greeting we do, and all 3 of them get complained about!
say merry christmas, get someone who complains about how offensive that no other religions are being thought of, say happy holidays and people complain about how christmas is being ignored, but its the only holiday that matters.
then we have the third one, not saying anything about holidays at all, thats what i do, i could give a crap if you have a happy whatever, i'm just glad its over! but people complain about the fact that we don't say happy anything, as if its a crisis if we don't
you just can't win! i might agree with you, but its kind of narrowing your view of other peoples points, not everyone celebrates christmas, how would you feel
if someone wished you a happy winter solstice?i think flipping out and screaming at the person is a little much, but having someone wish me a marry christmas is ignorent of others religions, its a sure sign that the person doesn't care about anything outside of christianity
yes a majority of people are christians in this country, but not everyone is a christian, so i do consider it rude to assume they are, so IMO happy holidays is a better greeting to people you don't know to a lot of people it is, personally they should rename the secular holiday of the winter celebration and present giving to something else and let christians have christmas back, but christmas is really pretty meaningless to most people anyway, but most still consider it linked to christianity, becuase thats how they grew up on it, for many generations it was a religious holiday, but over hmm the last 20 years its become more secularized, but not to the point of it not being identified with christianity i don't think forced is the right word, more, i think, assuming a view of all people, by saying merry christmas, i look at it as an annoyence, when someone assumes i celebrate xmas, simply because its close to it, it simply seems like people who say merry christmas are ignoring others in favor of this holiday yes sir, the analogy just died a bitter death i think walmarts execs are a bit smarter than that, walmart may like the downhome christian image they try to perpecuate, but they would insult a ton of people who arn't christians, jews, athiests, muslims,pagans,etc oRLY? you may claim you wouldn't be offended by a greeting from someone you hardly know, but i doubt that very much, you might try to not be but like everyone else, you would be a bit. thats why happy holidays is better, everyone has some form of winter holiday in every religion i think it is bad manners, i think your religion is irrelevent to me and can bring only bad connotations rather than good for most people it is christian, it doesn't matter if you focus on santa or christ more, the holiday is christan, by the very fact of the name and were it came from, plus more people celebrate it about christ than santa, its the only time a lot of people go to church even, the mind of most people believe its christan, so it is by most people well then i guess you can't be offended by anything then, i've head a few christians complain about the happy holiday stuff when they want people to say merry christmas, its idiotic both ways maybe it isn't to you, but to most of the rest of the world it is it is to people who might be jewish or muslim or people who find chistianity offensive, or the person might find your assuption of them being christian offensive maybe they tried to do this, but i've been working there since 2004 and they never asked us to do anything like that about the same with conservitives really, its like poking a bear with a stick, but liberals are more squishy than conservitives, who on the other hand can be so dense they wouldn't know humour if you smacked them with a sign with humour!! in big letters and neon as i said, its bullshit, no one, no matter how little they care about employees like the owners of walmart, would do such a thing and get away with it
there are too many people who are religious, who work for walmart, for them to make such a stupid movethey may have tried it, but walmart knows how far they can bend something before a majority of buyers complain

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I just like insulting liberals. I think its fun and its easy to get a rise out of them.

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You know what that makes you? It makes you a childish dick who never outgrew pubescent playground antics.I'm interested in having grown-up, serious political discussions. If all you can bring to the table is trolling, then please bugger off.Don't waste my time.

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Some of the stuff I post on the internets is total bullshit. Semi-trolling, engaging people. I hope you can tell when I’m being serious and when I’m not, but probably not always. The insulting stuff only comes out because of the anonymity, or if I’m pissed off because of something in RL. I do find liberals to be really annoying though.

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The thing is, CS, the stuff you post, (just for fun we are to understand) that you think is "total bullshit, semi-troll" stuff?There are dozens, if not hundreds, of right wingers posting that bullshit (and much more extreme bullshit) all over the net and they all believe what they are writing is 100% correct and true. Many of these are major blogger or religious sites with tens of thousands of hits each day.What I've come to understand is that it is basically impossible to satirize the right wingers anymore, because every time somebody tries to write some silly, extreme, obviously over-the-top satire of the right wing nutjobs, it is discovered afterwords that there are already several right wing nutjobs out there who seriously, sincerely espouse those silly, extreme, over-the-top views. And not only that; lots and lots of people support these nutjobs and voice their support on these sites.Anybody who has been regularly following Tom Tommorow's comic This Modern World for the last few years knows exactly what I'm talking about.So, CS, if you want to discuss politics with those of us at the grown up table, you will have to get some manners.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

I have heard plenty about the war on Christmas, but I would say it comes down to the motives of the greeter. There is no way to be sure that a person or a corporation uses a certain greeting out of hatred. It may very well be out of respect.Personally I am happy to be greeted in any way that is synomous to the culture. If a person celebrates Hannukuh and wishes to include me in their joy or extend sincere wishes that my Hannukah be as joyful as theirs, it makes no difference to me whether I actually do celebrate Hannukah or not. Why should I feel insulted by a person who wishes me the happiness which they feel when contemplating and preparing for what is dearly valued by them?In this sense I do find people who complain about greetings to be silly. Some peeple will use anything at all as grounds for a complaint or a law suit. It is often impossible to please them. I heard about a rabbi recently who complained about the absence of a menorah in his town's holiday decor. The township removed all of the decorations completely, and he complained about the lack of spirit shown by the community.If this keeps up, I don't see why folks will stop at complaining about Christmas.Why not for that matter complain about hearing 'adieu' or 'adios'? Is it wrong for people to wish someone to go with God, if they don't even believe in God? Or is it flattering that the person is wishing you the highest blessing known to their culture?Go figure.

Or its in the middle. It is a greeting that was once religious but is on the way to being devoid of religious connotations. But I don’t really want to argue this point, I don’t really care enough. I agree that it is preferable, in general. I’m not arguing that Merry Christmas is a better greeting, my point is there is nothing wrong with it.What I disagree with is saying that someone shouldn’t be allowed to use Merry Christmas. I also disagree that there is anything wrong with using Merry Christmas as opposed to Happy Holidays. And I’m not going to “bend over backwards”, so to speak, to try to avoid offending ultra-sensitive people. When I wish someone, who I know nothing about, a Merry Christmas, I am not assuming they are christian, I am not forcing my religion on them, and I am not being offensive. If you take offense to my greeting, then tough titty.RAZD, I realize that you haven’t argued for any of those . is just some more

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Typical right-wing doesn't-get-it rant

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Heh, that sounds like a typical left-wing doesn’t-get-it rant. Does anybody really “get it”? So, its only because it has to do with religion, interesting . I think the right-wing NJ’s feel like the “War on Christmas” is one more example in a long line, where chritianity gets blamed for a bunch of crap and people try to tie it down. WAAAY off topic, lets not get me started . . I'm my proofread I just realised that I think I misread what you said here, just ignore this part.Yeah, saying Merry Christmas shouldn’t be offensive, the holiday isn’t christian anymore. Just because it the greeting, Merry Christmas, started off as christian, and still has the word christ in it doesn’t mean that it can’t be used without the connotation. When I tell people “Merry Christmas”, I am not telling them “to hold a mass in honor of christian icon”. That’s not how the phrase is used. WRT the christian war on yuletime, we better not go there. It would probably just bring out the troll in me Well, then I don’t know which one I am . maybe in denial. There’s definitely been a christian war on yuletime that has “forced” religious views, but I still don’t accept that wishing someone a Merry Christmas is forcing anything nor offensive. No wonder the RW NJ’s want to “take back” christmas. At least it might become respectable again. I did, thanks.

I did mindlessly repeat it I’m not so sure I’m a “true” believer.WRT propaganda, its difficult to know which side to believe. I have to look for myself. I’ve admitted that in my day-to-day life, I’ve seen little to no evidence of a WAR on christmas. But the left does seem to be invading its territory. If the war hasn’t begun, it at least looks like one is being prepared for. Maybe the christians are jumping the gun, but if it gonna be a fight . .. makes me thing of a line from a song.\\ Could you honestly say that they are not victimized at all? <.<>.>

To me, it looks like a response not an initiation. I believe you.(I worked at walmar when I was 16 for a couple months. Boy was it shitty.) People are gonna bitch about something, no matter what. Its annoying. From my point of view, the left does more bitching, but I could have a biased perspective. Every once in a while, I like to jump in and do a little bitching back. I couldn’t care less. I think you’re wrong here, at least in the way that I use the greeting. I’m aware of the other religions and don’t include the religious connotation in the greeting, and I certainly care about things outside of christianity. In the same way that you are saying that christians are making up persecution, the people who are offended be the greeting are falsy including ignorance and offense into the greeting. I don’t think Merry Christmas is better, I just don’t think its bad. I can agree that Happy Holidays is better but, personally, I’m not used to it. Merry Christmas comes naturally, as that’s what I was raised to say, and I don’t think I should have to change because of a few people’s perceived offense from it. and a lot of people believe in creationism but we can agree that we shouldn’t change a science curriculum to appease them. We shouldn’t change the holiday greeting to appease these people either. If it’s a greeting to a stranger the odds are that the person will be celebrating christmas in some way. The vast majority of people, in america at least, do. Its doesn’t assume that everyone does, but I’m not gonna to NOT use a greeting I prefer because of a small fraction of people that might get offended. Huh? We can probably steer away from the walmart thing. Its not really about them so much now. YaRLY Believe me, I wouldn’t be offended.Sure, Happy Holidays might be better, but if I prefer the worse greeting, I don’t want people saying its wrong that I used it. I don’t think its bad manner because when I wish a stranger a Merry Christmas, it lacks the religious connotation and makes no assumption of their religion. More reason for it NOT to be wrong to say it if the odds are the person you’re saying it too is celebrating the christian holiday. You’re right, christians shouldn’t try to make people say MC instead of HH.Off the top of my head I can’t think of anything specific that offends me but I’m sure there something. Well they’re wrong if they thing that it is a necessity that the greeting is christian. Well, I don’t assume they’re christian. But anyways, I don’t understand why they get offended by it. Especially when I’m not making that assumption and the greeting isn’t necessarily christian. Ok, I’m willing to drop the walmart-specific issues. Decent analogy. The liberals are over-sensitive too, to the point that I got to walk on pins and needles and be more careful than I’m willing to be. Then they get mad when I’m not, and they become the ones who are trying to force other people to do thing. Point taken.