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Author Topic:   The Results are in...There is a God! - What now?
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 106 of 159 (372279)
12-26-2006 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Rob
12-26-2006 9:47 AM


Re: Worship God?
quote:
What is frustrating is that God does not reveal Himself through well constructed arguments.
LOL!!!
Ain't that the truth!
ROTFLMAO!!!

This message is a reply to:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 107 of 159 (372281)
12-26-2006 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by nator
12-26-2006 10:04 AM


So, you have just refuted Phat's contention that the sort of dependence we have with God is healthy.
No, I thought I was refuting your comment that God is dependant upon us.
I think it is very healthy. And that is why God offers it to us. He already had communion with Himself (ie. trinity).
He just loves to give! So in that sense He had to create us, not because He is dependant, but because He is good, and has the power and knowledge to always chooses to do that which is right.
Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 108 of 159 (372283)
12-26-2006 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by nator
12-26-2006 10:05 AM


Re: Worship God?
Scottness writes:
What is frustrating is that God does not reveal Himself through well constructed arguments.
Schraff says:
LOL!!!
Ain't that the truth!
Well...Hmmm...
That was an unfortunate choice of words by me. After thinking it over, I wish to ammend my satement and will edit the post inwhich they were taken.
God does use masterfully, and even supernaturally crafted arguments; they're called parables.
But it is like the complex mathematical problem... You must first start at the bottom.
Only after you master addition and subtraction adnausiam, will you be able to progress to those parables that appear to make no sense whatsoever!
First you must humble yourself and admit you are a sinner in neeed of a savior. That is easy for a child, but difficult for a proud and hardened adult who is vested in their lifestyle and habits.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 109 of 159 (372285)
12-26-2006 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Rob
12-26-2006 10:15 AM


scottness writes:
He just loves to give!
When a gift is given, the donor gives up control of it. The recipient can do what he/she wants with it. The donor can not take it back and - for example - throw it into a lake of fire.
So if there is a for-sure God, according to the OP, who loves to give, according to you, what is the gift?

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 110 of 159 (372297)
12-26-2006 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by ringo
12-26-2006 11:21 AM


When a gift is given, the donor gives up control of it. The recipient can do what he/she wants with it. The donor can not take it back and - for example - throw it into a lake of fire.
So if there is a for-sure God, according to the OP, who loves to give, according to you, what is the gift?
The gift is dignity; freewill to choose to trust God's wisdom and reality, or create our own (even though we don't have the omnipotence to forsee the real consequences).
These are some of the issues that are difficult to unravel huh?. We must make sure we are trying to unravel them! Otherwise, we are only defending against what may be true for some other motivation. that's not an accusation... just obvious. That could apply to anyone, not just unbelievers of God.
Look at what you said. It's quite accurate!
The giver of the gift has no intention of throwing the receiver into the lake of fire. The receiver has forced that hand to his own demise.
God may have given the gift freely, but He would not be good if he allowed us to use it to destroy His heavenly and eternal reality.
If the gift was not freely given, then he would just force us into His holy and moral reality. He does not!
It takes a very secure being to consider creating another place inwhich we are free to live without His wisdom forever.
According to the Bible, hell will endure forever, and God will simply forget it. You and I would have this gnawing disatisfaction in our gut that it was left to itself in isolation. We may well want to wipe it out all together and impose our will on the others. But that is because we are insecure, and God is not.
He is willing to let us try to figure it all out and play His role. But He is not going to allow that to destroy Himself.
Speaking of my own children as an illustration. My sons may grow up and reject everything I believe and hold dear. That is their descision to make. But that does not mean that I will allow it in my house. If they do not want to tap into my wisdom that is freely given, then they will have to stumble around in the dark. I onnly hope they come to their senses before the ignorance of youth deystroys them. I cannot step in and interfere too often without being accused of imposition. But in cases of devestation and failure, I will be there not to say, 'You Fool!', but to forgive and be glad they now understand. It's so much more comforting to them to hear I was quite the fool myself. To take the shame, carry the cross, and let the suffering nourish wisdom and repentance.
Why anyone would choose to stay in a state of rebellion is a great mystery.
Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 111 of 159 (372300)
12-26-2006 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Rob
12-26-2006 9:47 AM


He doesn't stand on points
Dear Rob,
A request.
Instead of congratulating yourself on your profundity and feeling sorry for yourself over having to dumb it all down for us, try having a point.
A point makes a message much more interesting for your readers.
Thanks.
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Rob, posted 12-26-2006 9:47 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Rob, posted 12-26-2006 1:01 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 112 of 159 (372303)
12-26-2006 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Archer Opteryx
12-26-2006 12:50 PM


Re: Worship God?
Instead of congratulating yourself on how profound you are and feeling sorry for yourself over having to dumb it all down for us, try having a point.
I get knocked off my high horse all the time Archer. And I am so glad that I do. Otherwise what you say would be true.
I did make a point. The point was that if I give the simple arguments, I am mocked as somphomoric and arguing beneath the dignity of such noble steeds!
If I dish out powerful renditions of parablolic depth and simultaneous altitude, I am dismissed as preaching nonesense and platitudes.
I'm not feeling sorry for myself at all. I'm just stating the situation as I see it.
Someone must be willing to sit down and play student. This forum cannot be useful if everyone is always trying to be on the top of the mountain for no other purpose than to show their worth.
My worth is as filthy rags. My pride is as easy to see as anyones, and I am more than conscious of it.
And as cookie asked in the first post of this thread:
how ould God existing change your life
It changes everything for me. And I now live for Him. It is Christs worth that I argue for, and that gives me worth beyond my own depravity.
Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-26-2006 12:50 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-27-2006 2:44 PM Rob has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 113 of 159 (372306)
12-26-2006 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by nator
12-26-2006 9:46 AM


Re: Chiroptera demolishes a straw god
Are you challenging Gods right and position to be whatever He wants to be?
I would think that we should be grateful that God cares about us enough to want (or need) to have us around.
IMHO, however, God knows us better than we know ourselves, and is not the mean vindicative God portrayed in our literature by our own overactive imaginations.
(If God were mean, however...there is not much we could do about it! )
see...the whole perspective originates with the idea that we are a product of Gods imagination as the OP suggests...God is not a product of our imagination and cannot be defined and explained according to our whims.
Whats so problematic about a source (force) or character that exceeds anything that humans can control? We are in awe of natural phenomena like black holes...why are we always so skittish about God?
HINT: We don't like to face our own limitations and be accountable to God.

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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 114 of 159 (372310)
12-26-2006 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by ringo
12-26-2006 11:21 AM


Gift=presence
The gift is our ability to reason and decide for ourselves!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 12-26-2006 11:21 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 115 of 159 (372322)
12-26-2006 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
12-26-2006 1:47 PM


Re: Chiroptera demolishes a straw god
Phat, re:
Are you challenging Gods right and position to be whatever He wants to be?
Of course this assumes that God has free will. I question, along with Einstein, that God has any choices of being "whatever He wants to be." Just what would His choices be, anyway? I don't think God ever had a choice of being Bugs Bunny or Sitting Bull.
”Hoot Mon

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 116 of 159 (372357)
12-26-2006 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by U can call me Cookie
04-12-2006 9:24 AM


cookie writes:
What if, one day it turned out that the evidence all pointed to the existence of a supreme deity; responsible for the creation and maintenance of our reality? How would you feel? What would you do?
Well, He'd/She'd have a lot to answer for, hm? Among other things, I'd begin researching 1) the possibility of better gods and 2) the position papers of the Opposition.
If God is in control, is that the sort of God you would want to worship? Should God actually be worshipped at all?
I've always maintained my agnosticism on both points--the existence of God and the question of whether that God, if existing, should be worshipped.
As indicated above, I'd like to ask some questions first.

Drinking when we are not thirsty and making love at any time, madam, is all that distinguishes us from the other animals.
-Pierre De Beaumarchais (1732-1799)
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---------------------------------------

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 117 of 159 (372371)
12-26-2006 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
12-26-2006 1:47 PM


Typical Human Hubris
phat writes:
Are you challenging Gods right and position to be whatever He wants to be?
Of course not, that would be silly and foolish.
But in your first sentence you just slipped in one condition on God. You gave God a gender. Gender is a human or animal trait, an artifact of evolution. Gender would only be useful or make sense if the opposite gender existed.
You are challenging God's right to be say, no gender at all.
phat writes:
I would think that we should be grateful that God cares about us enough to want (or need) to have us around.
IMHO, however, God knows us better than we know ourselves, and is not the mean vindicative God portrayed in our literature by our own overactive imaginations.
What! now you are putting more conditions on God. You are presupposing that God
  • Cares for humans (Caring is a human emotion)
  • Wants humans around
  • Recognizes and know individual humans
  • Is not mean or vindictive (another human trait)
    God is not a product of our imagination and cannot be defined and explained according to our whims.
    Yes but you just put a significant profile of who this God being is, based on your imagination and whim - counter to your first admonishment. You put God in box and gave God a number of constraints. It is all error in that you are giving God characteristics based on no objective evidence.
    You are using a preconceived and egotistical notion that God is mindful of humans. You are even characterizing God as partially human by giving God human traits - blasphemy, if I have heard of it.
    It is very speciesist (at least arrogant) of humans to think that we are at the center of Gods mind and concern. God may view us like we might view the mold that grows on the cheese in the refrigerator.

  • This message is a reply to:
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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 118 of 159 (372373)
    12-26-2006 11:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
    12-26-2006 2:08 PM


    Re: Gift=presence
    Phat writes:
    The gift is our ability to reason and decide for ourselves!
    But it's only a gift if we are allowed to decide for ourselves.
    The topic title says, "There is a God! - What now?" According to some here, I am not allowed to say, "So what?" because if I do it's the lake of fire for me. That's not a choice.
    If the gift is the ability to decide for myself, then the consequences can only be the natural consequences of my decision, not the caprice of the so-called gift-giver.

    Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
    Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 114 by Phat, posted 12-26-2006 2:08 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 119 of 159 (372399)
    12-27-2006 7:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 118 by ringo
    12-26-2006 11:12 PM


    Gift=free will: No strings attached
    Allow me to run with this a moment!
    Take two hypothetical people. Bill and Bob. Lets assume that both of them live in a culturally diverse environment..(rather than a Southern evangelical community, for example.)
    Bill has an epiphany that God exists. He says to himself, "Wow! I don't really understand you, God, but I know enough to know you are in charge! Take my life...Please!"
    Bob is a bit more rational. He says to himself, "I know that God exists, but what I don't know is how to live any differently than I have been living. I'm doing my best and my best is all I can do. If God wants anything else from me, I'll know it."
    Is Bill any more "saved" than Bob? Would that they be judged, would they be judged based on their willingness to surrender their right to make rational decisions and their acknowledgment that God knows best?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 118 by ringo, posted 12-26-2006 11:12 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 120 of 159 (372417)
    12-27-2006 10:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
    12-27-2006 7:57 AM


    BillyBob
    Is Bill any more "saved" than Bob? Would that they be judged, would they be judged based on their willingness to surrender their right to make rational decisions and their acknowledgment that God knows best?
    Bill sounds like an idiot and a God that would want people to surrender their right to make rational decisions sounds even more idiotic.
    Bill has very likely been conned. He is weak and looking for some way to abrogate his own innate responsibility for his actions and behavior.
    Likely GOD would judge Bill as having totally failed. Whether Bill is saved or not is really questionable, but if saved, he would certainly be sent to the remedial humanities class before being allowed to take Heaven 101.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
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