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Author Topic:   Morality Decreasing With Time?
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 284 of 305 (372323)
12-26-2006 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by NosyNed
12-26-2006 3:14 PM


Re: not really done, Jar
But you didn't answer NJ's question about the what the increase or decrese is relative to. You also didn't answer the question of how such a small "poll" can be meaningful.
Because those two are irrelevant.
The questions I asked are simple. The are just yes/no questions.
You can only point to changes in morality over time as I have pointed out in this thread. At the time of the Bible, slavery was considered moral, and that view continued well into the 19th. Century. The same factors are shown in each of the examples I posted.
The measurement can only be made by those responding at this moment. The readers of this thread, based on their understanding of morality as it stands today, will answer each of those questions.
The audience then will decide whether the moral standard in effect today has increased or decreased relative to morality at some other era and culture.
Nemesis_Juggernaut loves to bring in irrelevancies when faced with a really simple position or question. That has been the tactic of choice throughout this thread and others. The issues you bring up are typical.
First, "what the increase or decrease is relative to".
Throughout the thread it has been pointed out that "relative" refers to what was considered moral in the past but immoral today.
The size of the poll is also irrelevant since it is limited to those reading and responding in this thread. Further all I said was that NJ agreed that morality is increasing. Since my position is only related to what NJ said, the size of the poll has NOTHING to do with the position.
The questions I asked were answered by Nemesis. In each case he indicated that he thought the current position was more moral than the position held in the past.
Further there have been assertions that there is some absolute morality, yet NO ONE has been able to provide an example of that which held up to examination.
Nemesis is simply playing moving goal posts.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by NosyNed, posted 12-26-2006 3:14 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-26-2006 4:40 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 285 of 305 (372324)
12-26-2006 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by anastasia
12-26-2006 3:47 PM


Re: NJ says morality is increasing.
First of all, does your list only apply to the United States?
If so, then please define why in your opinion the morals of the USA are going through this increase, while those of other countires may be status quo.
No. Not limited to just the US. And if someone wants, they could apply the particular questions to any other era or culture and the answer will depend on how YOU judge that Morality relative to YOUR moral standard.
Please explain also, how, if there are no absolutes, we may be sure that these examples do indeed symbolize improvement, and not just a relative set of ideals that US citizens happen to have been programmed into seeking.
We can ONLY judge based on our standards. There may well absolutes, who knows, even absolute morals, but so far no one has presented one.
Murder by princes? Has it ever been moral, from Herod, to Henry? Haven't we just changed the faces of the princes?
Of course it was moral, given the morals at the time. No one at the time questioned the moral rights of a Prince, in fact it was called "Divine Right of Kings".
The facts are that what we consider moral today is far different that what was considered moral in the past. The odds are that in the future much that we consider moral will be seen as immoral.
Guess what?
Folks at that time will also say that morality has increased.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by anastasia, posted 12-26-2006 3:47 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by anastasia, posted 12-26-2006 4:42 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 288 of 305 (372329)
12-26-2006 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by anastasia
12-26-2006 4:42 PM


Re: NJ says morality is increasing.
That may be, but if there is no Absolute standard, then we have no business judging at all, do we?
Of course we do and that too has been covered in this thread. The right is based on consensus of the culture and era.
As to the rest of your post it is either answered by what I just said or it refers to Laws which have NOTHING to do with morals. That too has been covered in this thread.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by anastasia, posted 12-26-2006 4:42 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Rob, posted 12-26-2006 4:59 PM jar has replied
 Message 292 by anastasia, posted 12-26-2006 5:07 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 290 of 305 (372331)
12-26-2006 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Hyroglyphx
12-26-2006 4:40 PM


Re: not really done, Jar
Whatever, nemesis_juggernaut.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-26-2006 4:40 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 296 of 305 (372341)
12-26-2006 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Rob
12-26-2006 4:59 PM


Re: NJ says morality is increasing.
How can we (with our Modern subjective view) claim to be any better than past societies who lived equally as morrally (within their subjective view)?
We can based on our current moral standards. Real simple.
You can't call that an improvement, unless you are looking at the whole history with an absolute standard and comparing us to them by that standard. And you are! As NJ brilliantly pointed out, you're using an absolute standard to measure relative things. And your response to him was 'Whatever!'
Bullshitski. I am simply asking about our moral standard today. I have also said that in the future it is likely others will look at us and say that we are immoral based on their standard at the time.
Please stop misrepresenting what I say.
Actions are relative, the intent and the justice is not. People do good things all the time for the wrong reasoning. (I'd love to give an example... but nah!)
Justice, like Law is yet another topic. Please stop moving the goal posts.
Some of us have been trying to make the case that morality is decreasing from an absolute point of view that is found within the heart, not in the possibly duplicitous actions.
Yes, some of you have asserted that. But you have NEVER presented an example of that Moral Absolute that stands up to examination.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Rob, posted 12-26-2006 4:59 PM Rob has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by anastasia, posted 12-26-2006 6:27 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 298 of 305 (372344)
12-26-2006 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by anastasia
12-26-2006 5:07 PM


Re: NJ says morality is increasing.
That makes no sense. The right to judge is based on the concensus? But where did we collectively get the right to judge?
We get the right by Being a community, a culture.
If a culture and an era can judge itself, why do we get involved in forcing our judgements on other cultures?
Great question. Ask those who advocate such practices.
The rest of my post has only to do with examples of morality that YOU brought up, except for drugs, and I guess if the consensus of our culture and era has decided that drugs are immoral, then you are not in that group. If the consensus has not decided that drugs are immoral, well, then, why the laws? And how could I determine what the REAL concensus is? Is it immoral to break a law that is decided by consensus? Is there any such thing as the Divine Rights of the Concensus? Or do I get away scott-free because MY conscience isn't bothering me?
Law, Justice and Morality are NOT the same thing. We are not discussing either Law or Justice in this thread but rather Morality and whether or not morality is decreasing over time.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by anastasia, posted 12-26-2006 5:07 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Rob, posted 12-26-2006 6:37 PM jar has not replied
 Message 304 by anastasia, posted 12-26-2006 6:57 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 303 of 305 (372349)
12-26-2006 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by anastasia
12-26-2006 6:27 PM


Re: NJ says morality is increasing.
So we can tell that morality has increased because we like what we are doing more than we like what people used to do?
Almost.
Morality, like knowledge, is cumulative and evolves over time. Societies and cultures learn morals; morals are not something given to them or forced upon them.
It is not a matter of liking what we consider moral today, in fact we may well dislike the restraints imposed by the current morality, but we abide by them.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by anastasia, posted 12-26-2006 6:27 PM anastasia has not replied

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