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Author Topic:   DNA is not English
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 5 of 26 (372360)
12-26-2006 7:41 PM


Genetic "language" is not a metaphor
But something else is important to note here about genes. It is the way the genetic code for a protein is stored on DNA. Notice that the exons, as they appear linearly on DNA, have no structural resemblance to the strings of amino acids, as they appear in proteins. This clearly means that one pattern holds a code (digital information) that can be transcribed into another pattern (structural protein). In this respect, genes are not “blueprints” of proteins, because genes look nothing like proteins. Instead the DNA holds only coded messages for proteins. Translating the code into a protein requires rules of language; a simple language, but a language nonetheless. This is why geneticists are utterly dependent upon their Genetic Dictionary; for them, “language” is not a metaphor.
”Hoot Mon

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 Message 6 by mick, posted 12-26-2006 8:32 PM Fosdick has not replied
 Message 7 by platypus, posted 12-26-2006 11:17 PM Fosdick has replied
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 10 of 26 (372433)
12-27-2006 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by platypus
12-26-2006 11:17 PM


Re: Genetic "language" is not a metaphor
platypus responded to my post:
Translating the code into a protein requires rules of language; a simple language, but a language nonetheless.
What are the rules? If they are simple, you should be able to list them right here.
Don't take my word for it; many scientists have to read "genenglish" to interpret those coded instructions on nucleic acids that are used to inform ribosomes on how to build specific proteins.
02 August 2005
Scientists crack 40-year-old DNA puzzle and point to ”hot soup’ at the origin of life
A new theory that explains why the language of our genes is more complex than it needs to be also suggests that the primordial soup where life began on earth was hot and not cold, as many scientists believe.
In a paper published in the Journal of Molecular Evolution this week, researchers from the University of Bath describe a new theory which they believe could solve a puzzle that has baffled scientists since they first deciphered the language of DNA almost 40 years ago.
”Hoot Mon
Edited by AdminAsgara, : fixed url

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 13 of 26 (372487)
12-27-2006 7:57 PM


Genetic "language" and syntax
Thanks, jar, I think you got it.
Maybe I’m pushing it a bit too far to insist that the genetic code is a language. After further consideration I got tripped up on this matter of syntax. In this regard, two leading evolutionary biologists, John Maynard Smith & Ers Szathmáry, have something worthwhile to say about language and syntax (from The Origins of Life, 1999, p. 169):
The analogy between the genetic code and human language is remarkable. Spoken utterances are composed of a sequence of a rather small number of unit sounds, or phonemes (represented, at least roughly, by the letters of the alphabet). The sequence of these phonemes first specifies different words, and then, through syntax, the meanings of sentences. By this system, the sequence of a small number of kinds of unit can convey an indefinitely large number of meanings. The genetic message is composed of a linear sequence of only four kinds of unit. This sequence is first translated, via the code, into a sequence of 20 kinds of amino acid. These strings of amino acids fold to form three-dimensional functional proteins. Through gene regulation, the right proteins are made at the right times and places, and an indefinite number of morphologies can be specified.
Thus in both systems a linear sequence of a small number of kinds of unit can specify an indefinitely large number of outcomes. But there is one respect in which the two systems cannot usefully be compared. In language, the meanings of sentences depend on the rules of syntax. These rules are formal and logical. In contrast, the ”meaning’ of the genetic message cannot be derived by logical reasoning. Thus, although the amino acid sequence of the proteins can be simply derived from the genetic message, the way they fold up to form dimensional structures, and the chemical reactions that they catalyse, depend on complex dynamic processes determined by the laws of physics and chemistry. It does not seems possible to draw a useful comparison between the way in which meaning emerges from syntax, and that in which chemical properties emerge from the genetic code.
Giving fair weight to their respectable opinions, I will have to re-think or give up my position of a genetic “language.” What remains, however, is this troubling absence of ANY physical or chemical principles that account for the formation of the genetic code in the first place.
”Hoot Mon

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 23 of 26 (372771)
12-29-2006 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by 12345
12-28-2006 5:26 PM


Re: Useful analogy, but just an analogy.
12345 re:
An example of where the DNA code can be thought of as more of an anologue rather than digital code is in transcription factor binding sites. Here the "code" is bound based on its "shape". The binding protein can recognise varients of the sequence and will bind more or less strongly and so will activate/deactivate transciption depending on the concentration of the transcription factor.
I think you are saying that a stereochemical pathway exists for genetic messages from DNA to proetins, allowing all the structural information to be communicated by way of mechanical bonding. I would agree. Why do you suppose the structural information in that message cannot travel backwards from the protein to the gene? Irreversible mechanics?
”Hoot Mon

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 24 of 26 (372775)
12-29-2006 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by AnswersInGenitals
12-28-2006 6:43 PM


Re: Genetic "language" and syntax
AnswersInGenitals, re:
I have to disagree with Maynard Smith & Ers Szathmáry, although I do so with trepidation since i have an almost reverential respect for these two. One of the fastest growing and most important fields in molecular biology and genetics is called bio-informatics. One of the major thrusts of this field is to use a set of very high power computer programs to scan through DNA codes and do exactly what Maynard Smith & Ers Szathmáry say cannot be done: derive by logical reasoning the genetic content of that code, the gene interactions, and to some extent the structure of the encoded proteins of the DNA sequence. This is possible precisely because the DNA code does have a fairly rigorous syntax and a lot of the current work in genetics is devoted to deciphering that syntax.
This debate over genetic "language" seems heavily dependent on term definitions. Language, code, analog, digital, logic, meaning, syntax, etc. need commonly agreed-upon defintions. Syntax to one person may not be syntax to another. I think Maynard Smith & Szathmáry are following Noam Chomsky's agruments about language and syntax. In biology, language has a braod meaning. Bees, for example, are said to have a language to communicate all sorts of socially important infromation. But do bees communicate with syntax? Maybe so, maybe not.
”Hoot Mon

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5526 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 26 of 26 (372980)
12-30-2006 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by ringo
12-30-2006 9:34 AM


Re: Useful analogy, but just an analogy.
Ringo, re:
Hoot Mon writes:
I think you are saying that a stereochemical pathway exists for genetic messages from DNA to proetins, allowing all the structural information to be communicated by way of mechanical bonding. I would agree.
Hmm... I was under the impression that you were disagreeing in a couple of other threads. Thanks for the acknowledgement.
Yes, I was, but I've had a change of heart. The issue of syntax has taken its toll on me. I tried hard to maintain my argument that a genetic language defies all known principles of chemistry and physics. I have to agree with you that stereochemical mechanical bonding is firmly in place through the DNA-to-protein information pathway, even if the digital codons are quite unlike the amino acids they select. But I still don't have a clue as to how such a system of genetic codification originated. Natural selection certainly played a big part, but how? (I came to this forum to get my head kicked into shape on the issue of digital genes in a world chemical analogs . Your hard-nose mechanics have help me to revise my argument. Thanks.)
Why do you suppose the structural information in that message cannot travel backwards from the protein to the gene? Irreversible mechanics?
Is there a problem with a mechanical process being irreversible?
No, not really. As AZPaul3 has asserted, NS counts for a lot in the formation of a genetic coding system. My problem is that I don't know how NS did its job on those genes. There are not very many good hypotheses to consider.
”Hoot Mon

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