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Author Topic:   The Results are in...There is a God! - What now?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 121 of 159 (372422)
12-27-2006 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
12-27-2006 7:57 AM


Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
Phat writes:
would they be judged based on their willingness to surrender their right to make rational decisions and their acknowledgment that God knows best?
They would be judged on how they used the gift(s) they were given.
Suppose little Phat and little Ringo get identical toys for Christmas. Little Ringo takes his outside and plays with it, lets his friends play with it, lets the dog play with it. Within a few days, the paint is scratched, one of the wheels keeps falling off and the other three wobble. But a lot of kids have had a lot of fun with that toy and they still can.
Little Phat, on the other hand, doesn't even take his toy out of the package. He looks at it admiringly, but he won't let anybody touch it.
Years later, Phat sells his toy, in mint condition, for a small fortune. Ringo's toy has been lost or given away - he doesn't remember - but he remembers how much fun he had with it, so he buys a similar toy for his children.
Which gift was used "correctly"?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 12-27-2006 7:57 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by anastasia, posted 12-28-2006 1:19 AM ringo has replied
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 12-28-2006 7:02 AM ringo has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 122 of 159 (372453)
12-27-2006 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Rob
12-26-2006 1:01 PM


off-topic & out of context
If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)
Quotes are nothing but inspiration for the uninspired.
- Richard Kemph
___

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Rob, posted 12-26-2006 1:01 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Rob, posted 12-27-2006 9:12 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied
 Message 145 by Rob, posted 12-29-2006 1:42 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 123 of 159 (372489)
12-27-2006 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Archer Opteryx
12-27-2006 2:44 PM


Re: off-topic & out of context
Quotes are nothing but inspiration for the uninspired.
- Richard Kemph
Richard has his way with words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-27-2006 2:44 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4600 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 124 of 159 (372492)
12-28-2006 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Jon
12-25-2006 4:05 AM


Re: Worship God?
Sorry Jon for the lateness of my reply, the holiday season has ruined my online time
quote:
What evidence do you have for ANYTHING you've just said?
Various sources have made me question the validity of the bible. Some prime sources are the other religious texts, scientific results that show various events portrayed in the bible are not true historical events, and this very website as it shows there is much controvercy over the factual nature of the bible. I would be interested to see the evidence you have concerning the analogy you presented that prompted my reply!
quote:
Tell me, when was the last time you tried to make it into Heaven by following what was written in the Bible?
15 years ago.
quote:
If you did, did you get there or not?
Nope, I just recieced a deep sense of loss and a feeling that I was unimportant enough to ignore.
quote:
Would you take the chance of not following the instructions. Remember, you don't KNOW the instructions are bad, and they claim to be good, so what do you do?
The key to understanding this analogy is that the instructions claim to be good. There is however multiple instruction books and they all have different directions. Now with this information I am forced to discount all of them and instead try to incorporate the different methods into something that will hopefully lead to my desired conclusion. The cost is meaninless, the fact I have one try is also meaningless; I cannot simply hope that one set of instructions will, in fact, lead to my desired conclusion as I cannot take that risk.
Instead I prefer to take the process very slow and try to understand all the various aspects before jumping feet first into a blind faith attempt at getting it right.
quote:
The Bible is most-likely the best instruction book we have, and we have no reason to believe it isn't.
Most-likely?? - Your eternity would depend on such a choice. You seem to say that perhaps your bookshelf may turn out to be a furnace. I have reason to believe that the instructions are incorrect, does this not worry you?
The topic of this thread is if there was fact of a creator would this change how I live my life?
quote:
Now, if you want to go be with God when you die, then use His instruction booklet, otherwise, find a different thread
If the bible is correct, then I would prefer a warmer climate thank you. If my agnostic outlook is correct, and the bible is not historically factual, then I would instead attempt to understand God's works instead of claiming to know God's mind. If evidence someday revealed that there is a creator - my outlook on the world would not change a bit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Jon, posted 12-25-2006 4:05 AM Jon has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 125 of 159 (372495)
12-28-2006 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by ringo
12-27-2006 11:35 AM


Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
Ringo writes:
Which gift was used "correctly"?
Ah, Ringo, your point is too relative, and too relevent.
Toys come from parents (or whomever).
If little Ringo shares his toy and it cost his parents dearly to provide it, it is not as correct as it could have been.
If little Ringo shares his toy and his parents asked him not to, it is not as correct as it could have been.
The same applies to Baby Phat.
Sure they can do whatever they want with their toy, but in the end they may regret it because it was valuable, or simply because it hurt their parents.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by ringo, posted 12-27-2006 11:35 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-28-2006 5:24 AM anastasia has replied
 Message 129 by ringo, posted 12-28-2006 10:32 AM anastasia has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 126 of 159 (372506)
12-28-2006 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by anastasia
12-28-2006 1:19 AM


Re: Gift = free will. No strings attached.
anastasia:
Sure they can do whatever they want with their toy, but in the end they may regret it because it was valuable, or simply because it hurt their parents.
This argument that generosity and engagement might be the incorrect choice is interesting... given the fact that Ringo's parable is practically a paraphrase of the Parable of the Talents (Mt 25).
The master in that story took a stern view of the servant who preserved everything without touching it, even though the servant's stated motive was respect for the master.
___

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by anastasia, posted 12-28-2006 1:19 AM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by anastasia, posted 12-28-2006 9:52 AM Archer Opteryx has replied
 Message 137 by anastasia, posted 12-28-2006 1:26 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 127 of 159 (372511)
12-28-2006 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by ringo
12-27-2006 11:35 AM


Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
This sounds a bit like the parable of the talents!
So in the context of that parable, lets say that the gift is the gift of freewill and the knowledge between right and wrong.
I don't quite understand how you are applying the parable to the context.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by ringo, posted 12-27-2006 11:35 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by ringo, posted 12-28-2006 10:41 AM Phat has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 128 of 159 (372525)
12-28-2006 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Archer Opteryx
12-28-2006 5:24 AM


Re: Gift = free will. No strings attached.
Yes it sounds like the parable of the Talents. It is a bad analogy. The parable of the talents is in the Bible 1 time, and the parables, stories, and warnings about how to use our free-will are an unending topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-28-2006 5:24 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-28-2006 11:16 AM anastasia has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 129 of 159 (372534)
12-28-2006 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by anastasia
12-28-2006 1:19 AM


Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
anastasia writes:
If little Ringo shares his toy and it cost his parents dearly to provide it, it is not as correct as it could have been.
But how can it "cost" God anything to give us a gift?
If little Ringo shares his toy and his parents asked him not to, it is not as correct as it could have been.
The parents would be wrong to ask him not to share the gift. Most of the enjoyment of the gift comes from sharing it with others. And putting limits on the use of a "gift" makes it not a gift but a loan.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by anastasia, posted 12-28-2006 1:19 AM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by anastasia, posted 12-28-2006 1:06 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 130 of 159 (372536)
12-28-2006 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Phat
12-28-2006 7:02 AM


Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
Phat writes:
lets say that the gift is the gift of freewill and the knowledge between right and wrong.
Let's say that the gift is the freedom to choose between right and wrong. Let's say that the gift is being able to figure out for ourselves what the consequences of our actions are.
Let's say that God doesn't have to superimpose additional penalties on us. If we get punished for using the gift, why would we want it?
If the results are in and there is a God, what now?
Same as before. Do you expect God to force you to enjoy your toys?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 12-28-2006 7:02 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by anastasia, posted 12-28-2006 1:16 PM ringo has replied
 Message 144 by Phat, posted 12-29-2006 12:04 AM ringo has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 131 of 159 (372540)
12-28-2006 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by anastasia
12-28-2006 9:52 AM


Re: Gift = free will. No strings attached.
anastasia:
Yes it sounds like the parable of the Talents. It is a bad analogy.
On what grounds, other than your own decree, are we to label the Parable of the Talents 'a bad analogy'?
The parable of the talents is in the Bible 1 time, and the parables, stories, and warnings about how to use our free-will are an unending topic.
I see. Even though the parable addresses the question of free will and its use, we are not to pay attention to it because Jesus only told the story once.
Well, it's obvious you find the Parable of the Talents inconvenient. But you haven't even begun to make a credible case for ignoring it. The discussion, appropriately, proceeds.
__
Edited by Archer Opterix, : HTML.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by anastasia, posted 12-28-2006 9:52 AM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by anastasia, posted 12-28-2006 12:54 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 132 of 159 (372561)
12-28-2006 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Archer Opteryx
12-28-2006 11:16 AM


Re: Gift = free will. No strings attached.
Archer Opterix writes:
On what grounds, other than your own decree, are we to label the Parable of the Talents 'a bad analogy'?
If Ringo used the Parable for the basis of his story, only he can confirm that.
If he did use it, he has forgotten one element. The master in the story did indeed call for an account of the use of his gifts, and he did indeed punish the person who had buried his talents. Not with hell fire, but by throwing him out into the darkness.
I see. Even though the parable addresses the question of free will and its use, we are not to pay attention to it because Jesus only told the story once
I am sorry if this is what you understood from my post.
Well, it's obvious you find the Parable of the Talents inconvenient. But you haven't even begun to make a credible case for ignoring it. The discussion, appropriately, proceeds.
It is obvious that you have that disease of reading into a post things that are simply not there. There is nothing inconvenient about the Parable, and why should I make a credible case for ignoring something I don't wish to ignore?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-28-2006 11:16 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-28-2006 1:21 PM anastasia has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 133 of 159 (372565)
12-28-2006 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by ringo
12-28-2006 10:32 AM


Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
Ringo writes:
The parents would be wrong to ask him not to share the gift. Most of the enjoyment of the gift comes from sharing it with others. And putting limits on the use of a "gift" makes it not a gift but a loan.
In your analogy you did not mention the degree of accountability each child had to his parents. You also did not give an example of good or bad, you gave two acceptable good uses of a toy which can only be termed 'correct' or 'incorrect' relative to the desires of the givers. Gift, loan, whatever, I don't know a parent alive who doesn't get angry when a child breaks a new toy, and in many cases they certainly do punish them for their use of the gift.
Say baby Eve has a new toy and she shares it with her sister.
Say baby Lala has a new toy and she bangs it on her sister's head.
What happens to baby Lala and her gift?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by ringo, posted 12-28-2006 10:32 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by ringo, posted 12-28-2006 1:23 PM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 134 of 159 (372571)
12-28-2006 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by ringo
12-28-2006 10:41 AM


Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
Ringo writes:
Let's say that the gift is the freedom to choose between right and wrong. Let's say that the gift is being able to figure out for ourselves what the consequences of our actions are.
Let's say that God doesn't have to superimpose additional penalties on us. If we get punished for using the gift, why would we want it?
I am having trouble drawing the line between 'the consequences of our actions' and the 'additional penalties'. They are one and the same. You may feel free to tell me some consequences that are a sure fire result of our choices, if you can think of some. But please try to make it a little challenging.
BTW...if you don't want your free-will, there are a lot of prayers out there that will help you surrender it back to God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by ringo, posted 12-28-2006 10:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 12-28-2006 1:31 PM anastasia has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 135 of 159 (372575)
12-28-2006 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by anastasia
12-28-2006 12:54 PM


Re: Gift = free will. No strings attached.
anastasia:
It is obvious that you have that disease of reading into a post things that are simply not there. There is nothing inconvenient about the Parable, and why should I make a credible case for ignoring something I don't wish to ignore?
I look forward to reading your discussion.
__

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by anastasia, posted 12-28-2006 12:54 PM anastasia has not replied

  
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