Developing Countries: Birth Control?

You act very much like the classic psychologist who says that you cannot solve a problem without first admitting to it, and that denying the existance of a problem is a clear sign of a problem being present.Now, you have added unrest to my threads, and I cannot help but feel you either:a) dislike like me (in which case you need to get over it)
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b) actually feel like I am an ignorant fool who you can "save" from ingorance (in which case you need to get over yourself)Now, the topic was about birth control in developing countries. Who decided to make it an opportunity for attacking my voting beliefs? So, whether you are attacking me, or my beliefs is irrelivant for the most part. You nit-pickety attack each of my beliefs, whether relevant to the topic or not. What I believe about voting has nothing to do with the problem of death and disease in developing areas of the world--nothing at all.Why did you add it? I cannot even begin to guess, only to say that it seemed as though you had found yourself a perfect opportunity to bring up an old discussion and attack my position on a completely seperate issue, aka, you sidetracked the debate. Do you perhaps, for a second, think that I feel about you as you feel about buzsaw? Why is he so wrong on so many things? Recall, he has more experience in the world and understands matters dealing with world experience better. According to most of the posts you've made against me, you should be respecting his opinion, but you don't (or you simply disregard it), because you disagree with it.Well, I do respect the opinion of most folk older than myself. However, some people, no matter how old, just have view-points with which I disagree (as you disagree with buzsaw) and I do not find any interest in trying to grasp the bologna they send my way. Ignorance is merely the lack of knowledge on a subject. To claim I wasn't ignorant would be to claim I knew everything. I'm not stupid enough to believe I know everything. And really, this issue has little to do with knowledge; it's about morals. I believe your solutions would work well, as would gasby's, but I find them to be, in a way or another, immoral and, therefore, unworkable. This thread is not for giving advice on how I lead my life, and doing so (despite possible good intentions) is out of line, or at least off topic.You say that I am making factual mistakes. I would like you to point out my factual mistakes in this thread as they relate to the topic. Next, I would like you to explain your opinion, and your solution to the problem (if you feel one exists). In your explaination, I would like you to address the following points:1) world population
2) strain a developed individual puts on the world vs. that of an undeveloped individual
3) rights of any human to willfully reproduce
4) consequences of uninhibited reproduction as seen by the developed world
5) consequences of uninhibited reproduction as seen by the individuals reproducing
6) consequences of not reproducing (or reproducing little) as seen by the developed world
7) consequences of not reproducing (or reproducing little) as seen by the individuals reproducingNow, I hope that both you and I can get over the fact that you think I am ignorant long enough to focus on the topic, and I hope that there will be no more reference to my "ignorance" (or yours) again in this thread.J0N

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

Just because I use somewhat unacceptable language in my insults, does, in no way, make his comments any less of an insult.Where I am from, at least, you don't call someone ignorant to their face. And if you do, you are bound to get a "fuck off" or two in return. Unless you're Don Shelby, in which case he'll just publically bash you in one of his overly opinionated news casts.I pointed out to gasby over and over again where he said people shouldn't breed, and he kept asking me, which led to me upholding my end of the agreement. You recall, I warned him Either way, people say things they regret or don't regret all the time. Most people can put it behind them to deal with an issue which is indeed a problem. Others will keep their grudge till the end. I hope we can all put the past of this debate behind us and start over with a new understanding .J0N

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

I'm not disagreeing with you, actually I think calling someone "ignorant" stretches the limit of politeness - what language would you suggest to refer to someone who doesn't know something?That's what we're talking about, after all. Scientific knowledge represents very technical, in-depth information that we're not simply born with, nor can you aquire casually. Learning science takes some pretty serious study. Otherwise you just don't get it right.

being called stupid is insulting.
being called ignorant is not.the difference--the stupid person has chosen to ignore knowledge.
the ignorant hasn't been exposed, or doesn't have the background necessary to understand the material (like me and differential calculus, among many, many other subjects).

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I agree, except that most of this thread has nothing to do with scientific knowledge. It is more about morals. More about respecting the opinions and view points of others. Also, about offering up reasonable solutions to a problem that may or may not exist.J0N

1) Too big.
2) Ok, it depends on the individual in either case. A stereotypical Westerner might be a pointless consumer. They might also be a visionary in any field you choose to name. The latter has more value per unit of strain i'm afraid, pragmatically, than the former.
3) Rights are subjective.
4) I don't think it's about how its seen by the developed world, it's about the future of the species. Not my children, or my cousins children, but the looooong term survival. Most species become extinct. I do accept the percieved survival requirements of the individual, but it is not enough to outweigh the consequences.
5) Depends on the individual. I have the priviledge of living in the city in the UK with the highest proportion of teenage pregnancies. It's a small city, and I can tell you that most pregnant teenagers in this city are ignorant. They breed for benefit, the more children the more money they recieve. This seems mildly analogous to the scenario in the developing world. My friends are reluctant to reproduce because of the world they will be bringing a new consciousness into.6 and 7 seem to be the other end of 4 and 5.I hope it is clear that I feel that wanton reproduction is wrong all round.

try this on for size jon. why should they limit the number of children they have?economics."A basic rule of thumb is that an economy must grow at least as fast as the population just to forestall degradation in economic and social well-being. Economic growth must clearly exceed population growth for conditions to improve.""The drag of economics is, and will continue to be, a significant obstacle to development in man LDCs."source:
Bruce Russet, et al., World Politics: Menu for Choice, 8^ed, (Thomson Wadsworth, 2006), pg 449the end effect: if they want to support more children, and get out of poverty, they need to reduce the number of children to below their economic growth rate. At least that way, they can support the ones they have.if you want people to not be in poverty, to have access to health care, and all the other good stuff, you have to reduce population growth to match or be below economic growth. or, you have to raise economic growth to match or exceed population growth.

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You act very much like the classic psychologist who says that you cannot solve a problem without first admitting to it, and that denying the existance of a problem is a clear sign of a problem being present.

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Okay.

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Now, you have added unrest to my threads, and I cannot help but feel you either:

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a) dislike like me (in which case you need to get over it)

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No.

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or
b) actually feel like I am an ignorant fool who you can "save" from ingorance (in which case you need to get over yourself)

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No.This is a debate board. As such, if you post messages which contain what I think are mistakes in either fact or logic, I'm going to reply and address those mistakes.You don't have to change your mind, jon. However, I'm not going to let whoppers such as "it's the government's money and they can do what they want with it" go by unchallenged.

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Now, the topic was about birth control in developing countries. Who decided to make it an opportunity for attacking my voting beliefs?

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The moment you expressed an opinion regarding what our elected officials do with tax dollars, your refusal to vote became relevant. If you don't vote, you don't get to have your opinions listened to. Why should we listen to them?Look, you are the one who proudly proclaims his disinterest in participating in the democratic process because it "doesn't affect you". Don't blame me if I and others remember and call you on it when you wish to comment upon government action that you have decided does affect you afterall.

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So, whether you are attacking me, or my beliefs is irrelivant for the most part.

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I have never attacked you. Only your attitude, methods, and facts.

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You nit-pickety attack each of my beliefs, whether relevant to the topic or not. What I believe about voting has nothing to do with the problem of death and disease in developing areas of the world--nothing at all.

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It is very relevant if you bring up government spending and your opinion of what our elected officials should or shouldn't spend our money on.

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Why did you add it? I cannot even begin to guess, only to say that it seemed as though you had found yourself a perfect opportunity to bring up an old discussion and attack my position on a completely seperate issue, aka, you sidetracked the debate.

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As I explained, it is quite relevant. Again, don't blame me that your previously-stated position regarding voting has come back to bite you.

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Do you perhaps, for a second, think that I feel about you as you feel about buzsaw? Why is he so wrong on so many things?

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Well, he's so wrong on many things because he believes in things religiously, and refuses to learn or take in any information that contradicts his preferred beliefs.Is this how you feel about me? Do you believe I am profoundly willfully ignorant and that I believe most things merely on faith?

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Recall, he has more experience in the world and understands matters dealing with world experience better.

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About some things, he does.

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According to most of the posts you've made against me, you should be respecting his opinion, but you don't (or you simply disregard it), because you disagree with it.

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No, that's not true at all.

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Well, I do respect the opinion of most folk older than myself. However, some people, no matter how old, just have view-points with which I disagree (as you disagree with buzsaw) and I do not find any interest in trying to grasp the bologna they send my way.

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I understand, or "grasp" everything Buzsaw sends my way, and I have factual and logical reasons for disagreeing with him.If you believe the stuff I send your way is "baloney", then why do you have such trouble addressing it calmly and rationally? Why do you go off on petulant rants so often, erecting strawmen to knock down?

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Ignorance is merely the lack of knowledge on a subject. To claim I wasn't ignorant would be to claim I knew everything. I'm not stupid enough to believe I know everything.

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Yes, that's exactly right.So, why did you react in such an offended manner when I pointed out that you may be ignorant of a few things?

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And really, this issue has little to do with knowledge; it's about morals.

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That's silly, of course it has to do with knowledge. If you don't know what the situation in developing countries actually is, then how can you judge the morality of the actions suggested?

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I believe your solutions would work well, as would gasby's, but I find them to be, in a way or another, immoral and, therefore, unworkable.

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Well, so far you haven't objected to our actual arguments, but to strawman arguments of your own construction.

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You say that I am making factual mistakes. I would like you to point out my factual mistakes in this thread as they relate to the topic.

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Sure, here you go:"My morals and my world experience aren't related" FALSE"And, when I grow up and experience the world I will see it your way, eh?" STRAWMAN"And remember, if you adopt them out of that society, and in to your own, it does nothing to further their own society." FALSE"Will you adopt a healthy one, or one dying of some strange incurable disease?" FALSE DICHOTOMY/STRAWMAN"And if you do adopt a healthy one, and we all followed you and your "wisdom" and adopted babies (adopting the healthy ones), what would be left in the developing countries?" STRAWMAN"And you STILL haven't answered what will happen if we adopt all the children out of poverty!" STRAWMAN"I can certainly tell that it's your wish that we would be able to adopt them all in an ideal situation." STRAWMAN"Once I experience life, I'll just see everything the way you do, won't I? You are all wise, aren't you?" STRAWMAN"You attack ME over and over and over and over and over again, and you never attack the issue." FALSEYou act like giving birth is the lowest form of activity around" STRAWMAN"Just to say that it is the government's money, and they can spend it how they choose." FALSEYou want to reduce the number living in poverty by reducing the number living." STRAWMAN/FALSEIf everyone here gets their wish, and the people in developing nations stop reproducing" STRAWMANWhat would you think if the world leaders announced that they were going to raise taxes in their countries in order to bring down the income of people in developed countries so that the money could be spent on people in developing countries. " FALSE DILEMMA"You know, not everyone on these forums can fly from one country to the next to enjoy the pleasures of gawking at the poor starving kids as if they were circus clowns." PERSONAL ATTACK"Fuck off" PERSONAL ATTACK"You're a dick" PERSONAL ATTACK"that the U.S. people do FAR more to contribute to foreign aid than does the government of the U.S., or the governments of most other countries." FALSE

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Next, I would like you to explain your opinion, and your solution to the problem (if you feel one exists). In your explaination, I would like you to address the following points:

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1) world population

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Too large.

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2) strain a developed individual puts on the world vs. that of an undeveloped individual

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A person in a developed country puts a much greater strain on resources than on in an underdeveloped one.

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3) rights of any human to willfully reproduce

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Everybody has this basic human right.

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4) consequences of uninhibited reproduction as seen by the developed world

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overtaxed resources, leading to starvation, disease, war.

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5) consequences of uninhibited reproduction as seen by the individuals reproducing

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I have no idea what individuals think. I can only speak for myself.More people = more strain on resources.

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6) consequences of not reproducing (or reproducing little) as seen by the developed world

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Fewer people = more resources for the people who are born.

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7) consequences of not reproducing (or reproducing little) as seen by the individuals reproducing

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I have no idea what individuals think. I can only speak for myself.Fewer people = more resources for people who are bornEdited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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