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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 1444 (372731)
12-29-2006 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by VerifyMe
12-29-2006 1:15 AM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
Could God create a rock so heavy that even he could not move it?
That's kindof a non-question, but...
An omnipotent god could create a rock so heavy that he could not move it while simultaneously being able to move it, existing in logical contradiction, and not, forever and instantly, in the past and the future.
I mean, how far(ridiculous) do we have to take this?
What's the point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by VerifyMe, posted 12-29-2006 1:15 AM VerifyMe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by VerifyMe, posted 12-29-2006 4:30 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3832 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 17 of 1444 (372756)
12-29-2006 12:05 PM


If my example is illogical, how can the belief itself be "believable"
Is it simply because God is beyond Logic ? But if he is, then how can we ever understand his teaching ?

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 6013 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 18 of 1444 (372788)
12-29-2006 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by New Cat's Eye
12-28-2006 9:56 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
Catholic Scientist
How about Omnipotent and powerless at the same time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-28-2006 9:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-29-2006 3:00 PM sidelined has replied
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 1444 (372795)
12-29-2006 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by sidelined
12-29-2006 2:29 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
How about Omnipotent and powerless at the same time?
Why not?
That's the same question. What's your point? Let's cut to the chase...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by sidelined, posted 12-29-2006 2:29 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by sidelined, posted 12-29-2006 3:14 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 6013 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 20 of 1444 (372798)
12-29-2006 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by New Cat's Eye
12-29-2006 3:00 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
Catholic Scientist
That's the same question
Actually it is not since non omnipotence can be any level up to but falling short of omnipotence itself.
Anyway we need to resolve how a God can engage in the logical impossibilities if he is powerless and how such a state{ Omnipotence and impotence} can been considered achievable even in a world without rules of logic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-29-2006 3:00 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-29-2006 4:00 PM sidelined has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 1444 (372803)
12-29-2006 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by sidelined
12-29-2006 3:14 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
That's the same question
Actually it is not since non omnipotence can be any level up to but falling short of omnipotence itself.
You're right, I overlooked that.
How about Omnipotent and powerless at the same time?
The reason I would say that he could is becuase if I said that he couldn't then it wouldn't be omnipotence in the first place.
Anyway we need to resolve how a God can engage in the logical impossibilities if he is powerless and how such a state{ Omnipotence and impotence} can been considered achievable even in a world without rules of logic.
If it is omnipotence then everything is acheivable. Why do we have to come up with how its possible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by sidelined, posted 12-29-2006 3:14 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by sidelined, posted 12-29-2006 4:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 6058 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 22 of 1444 (372805)
12-29-2006 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kader
12-28-2006 1:13 PM


Dear Kader,
Have you ever heard of theoligical determinism and compatibilism?
There are many possible positions one could take on the issue of free will.
The one used by Judeo-Christian religions is the above.
To explain, God is omniscient, period. We have free will, period. They do not cancel each other out.
It is not hard to grasp, really. There have been examples in court cases where a lawyer has argued determinism as a way to exonerate a prisoner. If all things are naturally GOING to happen, are they predetermined by NATURE? Or do we dictate to an extent what DOES happen? We don't need to even bring God into the picture to see that this type of reasoning will probably not get the guilty pardoned.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Kader, posted 12-28-2006 1:13 PM Kader has replied

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 Message 28 by Kader, posted 12-29-2006 5:08 PM anastasia has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 6013 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 23 of 1444 (372806)
12-29-2006 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by New Cat's Eye
12-29-2006 4:00 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
Catholic Scientist
Why do we have to come up with how its possible?
Because while the omnipotence side of the equation works at the same time we have powerlessness which negates the ability so it now becomes a case concerning what it means to allow for logical impossibilities.
Can we indeed allow for logical impossibility while at the same time maintaining a definition of Omnipotence and powerlessness whose states depend upon logical structures in order to define them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-29-2006 4:00 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 1444 (372809)
12-29-2006 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by sidelined
12-29-2006 4:08 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
Because while the omnipotence side of the equation works at the same time we have powerlessness which negates the ability so it now becomes a case concerning what it means to allow for logical impossibilities.
Honestly, I don't think it means very much.
It might even be meaningless.
Can we indeed allow for logical impossibility while at the same time maintaining a definition of Omnipotence and powerlessness whose states depend upon logical structures in order to define them?
Ummmmmmm........no?
I don't really know.
I'd say that you can't really maintain the definition of omnipotence if you not going to allow it to include logical impossibilities.

This message is a reply to:
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VerifyMe
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 1444 (372810)
12-29-2006 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by New Cat's Eye
12-29-2006 10:05 AM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
An omnipotent god could create a rock so heavy that he could not move it while simultaneously being able to move it, existing in logical contradiction, and not, forever and instantly, in the past and the future.
I mean, how far(ridiculous) do we have to take this?
What's the point?
My point is how rediculous god is starting to sound.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-29-2006 10:05 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

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 Message 26 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-29-2006 4:39 PM VerifyMe has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 1444 (372812)
12-29-2006 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by VerifyMe
12-29-2006 4:30 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
My point is how rediculous god is starting to sound.
Becuase of the omnipotence, which I admitted was ridiculous in Message 7.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by VerifyMe, posted 12-29-2006 4:30 PM VerifyMe has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 6058 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 27 of 1444 (372815)
12-29-2006 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by sidelined
12-29-2006 2:29 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
sidelined writes:
How about Omnipotent and powerless at the same time?
omnipotent and powerless?
God and Man?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by sidelined, posted 12-29-2006 2:29 PM sidelined has not replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3832 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 28 of 1444 (372820)
12-29-2006 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by anastasia
12-29-2006 4:07 PM


quote:
According to Hume, free will should not be understood as an absolute ability to have chosen differently under exactly the same inner and outer circumstances. Rather, it is a hypothetical ability to have chosen differently if one had been differently psychologically disposed by some different beliefs or desires.
What a nice way to make everything fit
comptabilism just change the definition a bit to make it so the new definition of free will is now compatible with Omniscience
It is not hard to grasp, really. There have been examples in court cases where a lawyer has argued determinism as a way to exonerate a prisoner. If all things are naturally GOING to happen, are they predetermined by NATURE? Or do we dictate to an extent what DOES happen? We don't need to even bring God into the picture to see that this type of reasoning will probably not get the guilty pardoned.
Yet in my example, how can the guy who shoots have free will ?
If its easy to grasp, it must be easy to explain ?
Edited by Kader, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 4:07 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 5:46 PM Kader has replied
 Message 71 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 11:54 AM Kader has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 6058 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 29 of 1444 (372827)
12-29-2006 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Kader
12-29-2006 5:08 PM


Kader writes:
Yet in my example, how can the guy who shoots have free will ?
If its easy to grasp, it must be easy to explain ?
You will need to give me your example again. I did not get it the first time around.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Kader, posted 12-29-2006 5:08 PM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2275 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 30 of 1444 (372830)
12-29-2006 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by New Cat's Eye
12-29-2006 4:18 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
quote:
I'd say that you can't really maintain the definition of omnipotence if you not going to allow it to include logical impossibilities.
Well, just about every major theologian disagrees with you.
The problem is that you cannot escape the logical implications in the definition of "omnipotence".
"Omnipotence" as a concept is inescapably subject to logic.
It is simply incoherent and meaningless to say that god is powerless and omnipotent at the same time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-29-2006 4:18 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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