EvC Forum: The Results are in...There is a God!

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Topic: The Results are in...There is a God! - What now?

ringo

Member (Idle past 433 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 148 of 159 (372694)
12-29-2006 2:19 AM

Reply to: Message 144 by Phat
12-29-2006 12:04 AM

Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached

Phat writes:

Let's say that the gift is the freedom to choose between right and wrong.

Perhaps by imparting an awareness of both spirits, vibes, or whatever you choose to call them...

Sorry, I don't know what you're trying to say there.

Let's say that the gift is being able to figure out for ourselves what the consequences of our actions are.

though not necessarily by exercising our will but by surrendering to the wind

Don't know what you're trying to say there either.

Let's say that God doesn't have to superimpose additional penalties on us. If we get punished for using the gift, why would we want it?

thats like saying that if a person falls often while learning to ski, why would they want to ski?

Not at all. The falls are the natural consequence of the decision to ski. What we're talking about here is an additional punishment after the natural consequences. It would be like falling down all day while learning to ski and then being thrown into jail for being a lousy skier. That's what I'm saying God would not do.

Do you expect God to force you to enjoy your toys?

No, but God in His wisdom may know that you will soon be forced to make a decision in your free will and not ride the wishy washy wave forever!

Don't know what that's supposed to mean either. I'm talking about taking responsibility for your own actions. What's "wishy washy" about that?

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 144 by Phat, posted 12-29-2006 12:04 AM		Phat has not replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 433 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 150 of 159 (372737)
12-29-2006 10:28 AM

Reply to: Message 149 by Rob
12-29-2006 9:32 AM

Re: unaffirmability

scottness writes:

Cynical humor and it's manifest laughter, is a feeling created by somewhat conflicted thoughts.

quote:
Unconflicted "thoughts" aren't really thoughts - they're just opinions.

- Ringo

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	Message 149 by Rob, posted 12-29-2006 9:32 AM		Rob has not replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 433 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 152 of 159 (372758)
12-29-2006 12:19 PM

Reply to: Message 151 by anastasia
12-29-2006 12:08 PM

Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached

anastasia writes:

The gift is eternal life, and this passage does not deal with the aqcuisition of that gift.

I quoted the passage to emphasize the fact that the gift is not a wage - it is not earned, either through good deeds or bad.

It does not say that the gift is given equally to sinners and righteous men.

Nor does it say otherwise. Once again, the concept of "gift" would be meaningless if it had to be earned by "righteousness".

Free will is a gift that is given equally, but all subsequent gifts are given as a result of our actions.

We're not talking about "subsequent gifts". We're talking about the gift of free will, which is worthless if we can be punished for exercising it.

If there is no punishment for the wicked, then you are accepting the gospel of inclusion where ALL men reach heaven in spite of how they live their lives....

Bingo.

If not, free will is not a gift.

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 151 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 12:08 PM		anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 155 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 3:39 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 433 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 156 of 159 (372804)
12-29-2006 4:06 PM

Reply to: Message 155 by anastasia
12-29-2006 3:39 PM

Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached

anastasia writes:

... even if eternal life is a gift, the question is; where will we spend it?

Actually, the question is: If there is a God, what now? My answer has been: same as before, because of free will.

There are plenty of gifts which must be earned. Unless you prefer to call them 'rewards'.

I do prefer to call a gift a gift and a reward a reward.

We are constantly being judged and punished for using our free will.

By whom?

Maybe you think that God doesn't care what we do and all our morals are our own inventions?

Bingo again. You're going to go home rich tonight.

All I want to know is; Why do I need to be good?

To get along with your fellow man.

Why did anyone waste their time on this big old Bible full of laws and morals?

Why did anyone waste their time on the Encyclopedia Britannica?

Why did Jesus spend so much time telling us how to live and how to reach the Kingdom of Heaven?

So we could learn to get along with our fellow man. So we can reach the Kingdom of Heaven by treating our fellow man as we want to be treated.

Maybe this whole concept of original sin and punishment is made up, but punishment is a necessary element to the 'plot' of the Bible.

Well, "original sin" is certainly made up. But who made it up? Who wrote the plot?

The OP is not about your encapsulated, patented idea of God.

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 155 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 3:39 PM		anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 157 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 4:44 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 433 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 158 of 159 (372819)
12-29-2006 5:05 PM

Reply to: Message 157 by anastasia
12-29-2006 4:44 PM

Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached

anastasia writes:

If you want to get nit-picky we are not judged FOR using free will, but for HOW we use it.

You said we are "constantly" being judged and punished. By whom?

If they are being bad but still 'getting along' in public, so what?

I didn't say anything about "getting along in public". Child molesters are not getting along with their fellow man.

You can be bad and still reap the benefits of being good. Cash flow makes this real easy

I'm not sure why you equate cash with the "benefits of being good".

... you are avoiding the issue of what happens if we don't.

That's not the topic.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
	Message 157 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 4:44 PM		anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 159 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 9:49 PM		ringo has not replied

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