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Author Topic:   The Results are in...There is a God! - What now?
anastasia
Member (Idle past 4064 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 151 of 159 (372757)
12-29-2006 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by ringo
12-29-2006 2:07 AM


Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
Ringo writes:

There's a reason why Paul made a distinction between wages and gift. The gift can not produce death, only life.

But what is the gift, Ringo? The gift is eternal life, and this passage does not deal with the aqcuisition of that gift. It does not say that the gift is given equally to sinners and righteous men. Free will is a gift that is given equally, but all subsequent gifts are given as a result of our actions.

It is no use to quote mine one passage when there are so many others which are explicit on the natural consequence of sin.

It doesn't matter how many times you rephrase your argument. If there is no punishment for the wicked, then you are accepting the gospel of inclusion where ALL men reach heaven in spite of how they live their lives, or you must incorporate a philosphy of reincarnation where we will have many opportunities to become perfect.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by ringo, posted 12-29-2006 2:07 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 12-29-2006 12:19 PM anastasia has responded
 Message 153 by jar, posted 12-29-2006 12:37 PM anastasia has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16362
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 152 of 159 (372758)
12-29-2006 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by anastasia
12-29-2006 12:08 PM


Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
anastasia writes:

The gift is eternal life, and this passage does not deal with the aqcuisition of that gift.

I quoted the passage to emphasize the fact that the gift is not a wage - it is not earned, either through good deeds or bad.

It does not say that the gift is given equally to sinners and righteous men.

Nor does it say otherwise. Once again, the concept of "gift" would be meaningless if it had to be earned by "righteousness".

Free will is a gift that is given equally, but all subsequent gifts are given as a result of our actions.

We're not talking about "subsequent gifts". We're talking about the gift of free will, which is worthless if we can be punished for exercising it.

If there is no punishment for the wicked, then you are accepting the gospel of inclusion where ALL men reach heaven in spite of how they live their lives....

Bingo.

If not, free will is not a gift.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 12:08 PM anastasia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 3:39 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 153 of 159 (372763)
12-29-2006 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by anastasia
12-29-2006 12:08 PM


Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
If there is no punishment for the wicked, then you are accepting the gospel of inclusion where ALL men reach heaven in spite of how they live their lives, or you must incorporate a philosphy of reincarnation where we will have many opportunities to become perfect.

I think you are conflating two concepts, Free-Will and Salvation.

The Gift freely given is Salvation. No one, believer or non-believer starts off damned. GOD sent Jesus to tell us that All Men begin forgiven.

Free-will though is not a gift. It is a capability. It is related to the capability, Knowledge of Good and Evil. The capabilities did come with conditions though and they were laid out at the time of acquisition.

We have the ability to know right from wrong.

We have the free-will to do either.

We are expected to use our free-will to try to do what is right and to try not to do what is wrong.

We will be judged based on how we use those two things.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 12:08 PM anastasia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 2:59 PM jar has not yet responded

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 4064 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 154 of 159 (372794)
12-29-2006 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by jar
12-29-2006 12:37 PM


Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
jar writes:

I think you are conflating two concepts, Free-Will and Salvation.

That's possible. I am only using 'gift' to describe free-will since Ringo has been doing so, but it is not the same 'gift' which Paul had in mind.

Regardless, we are making the same point; we will be judged based upon our use of free will.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 12-29-2006 12:37 PM jar has not yet responded

    
anastasia
Member (Idle past 4064 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 155 of 159 (372801)
12-29-2006 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by ringo
12-29-2006 12:19 PM


Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
Ringo writes:

I quoted the passage to emphasize the fact that the gift is not a wage - it is not earned, either through good deeds or bad.

Fine, but even if eternal life is a gift, the question is; where will we spend it?

Nor does it say otherwise. Once again, the concept of "gift" would be meaningless if it had to be earned by "righteousness".

There are plenty of gifts which must be earned. Unless you prefer to call them 'rewards'. Maybe Paul means that no one is righteous enough to earn eternal life, so it must be a freely given gift.

We're not talking about "subsequent gifts". We're talking about the gift of free will, which is worthless if we can be punished for exercising it.

I just dont understand the objection. We are constantly being judged and punished for using our free will. If even men dont think 'free will' = 'do whatever I want and get away with it' why do you think God would? Maybe you think that God doesn't care what we do and all our morals are our own inventions?

You are repeating the same thing over and over, but I don't see how it is being applied in reality. All I want to know is; Why do I need to be good? Why did anyone waste their time on this big old Bible full of laws and morals? Why did Jesus spend so much time telling us how to live and how to reach the Kingdom of Heaven?

I know you will say 'the natural result of the action is the punishment'. But you know as well as I do that this is far from absolute. What payment could we ask of Hitler that would make amends for one one-hundredth of his crime? He died , as we all will die, and never even saw the judgement of humanity. Shall he just pop back into existance at the end? If that is all there is to life, why even bother with free will, why not just let us be as animals, or better yet put us in heaven to begin with?

It is not fun to believe in punishment, especially not eternal punishment. It is hard enough to imagine eternal existence anywhere. Maybe this whole concept of original sin and punishment is made up, but punishment is a necessary element to the 'plot' of the Bible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 12-29-2006 12:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 12-29-2006 4:06 PM anastasia has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16362
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 156 of 159 (372804)
12-29-2006 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by anastasia
12-29-2006 3:39 PM


Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
anastasia writes:

... even if eternal life is a gift, the question is; where will we spend it?

Actually, the question is: If there is a God, what now? My answer has been: same as before, because of free will.

There are plenty of gifts which must be earned. Unless you prefer to call them 'rewards'.

I do prefer to call a gift a gift and a reward a reward. :)

We are constantly being judged and punished for using our free will.

By whom?

Maybe you think that God doesn't care what we do and all our morals are our own inventions?

Bingo again. You're going to go home rich tonight. :)

All I want to know is; Why do I need to be good?

To get along with your fellow man.

Why did anyone waste their time on this big old Bible full of laws and morals?

Why did anyone waste their time on the Encyclopedia Britannica?

Why did Jesus spend so much time telling us how to live and how to reach the Kingdom of Heaven?

So we could learn to get along with our fellow man. So we can reach the Kingdom of Heaven by treating our fellow man as we want to be treated.

Maybe this whole concept of original sin and punishment is made up, but punishment is a necessary element to the 'plot' of the Bible.

Well, "original sin" is certainly made up. But who made it up? Who wrote the plot?

The OP is not about your encapsulated, patented idea of God.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 3:39 PM anastasia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 4:44 PM ringo has responded

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 4064 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 157 of 159 (372813)
12-29-2006 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by ringo
12-29-2006 4:06 PM


Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
I said;

We are constantly being judged and punished for using our free will.

Ringo writes:

By whom?

If you want to get nit-picky we are not judged FOR using free will, but for HOW we use it. I don't think you need an answer to your question, 'by whom'?

To get along with your fellow man.

Yeah right. Being good usually gets you home alone Friday night. What about child molesters who don't get caught? If they are being bad but still 'getting along' in public, so what? You can be bad and still reap the benefits of being good. Cash flow makes this real easy :)

So we could learn to get along with our fellow man. So we can reach the Kingdom of Heaven by treating our fellow man as we want to be treated.

Ok, but you are avoiding the issue of what happens if we don't.

The OP is not about your encapsulated, patented idea of God.

No, but some how the OP progressed to a discussion of your patented idea of free will.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 12-29-2006 4:06 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by ringo, posted 12-29-2006 5:05 PM anastasia has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16362
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 158 of 159 (372819)
12-29-2006 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by anastasia
12-29-2006 4:44 PM


Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
anastasia writes:

If you want to get nit-picky we are not judged FOR using free will, but for HOW we use it.

You said we are "constantly" being judged and punished. By whom?

If they are being bad but still 'getting along' in public, so what?

I didn't say anything about "getting along in public". Child molesters are not getting along with their fellow man.

You can be bad and still reap the benefits of being good. Cash flow makes this real easy

I'm not sure why you equate cash with the "benefits of being good".

... you are avoiding the issue of what happens if we don't.

That's not the topic. :)


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 4:44 PM anastasia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 9:49 PM ringo has not yet responded

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 4064 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 159 of 159 (372865)
12-29-2006 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by ringo
12-29-2006 5:05 PM


Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
Ringo writes:

That's not the topic.

No problem :) I will save it for the next go 'round.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by ringo, posted 12-29-2006 5:05 PM ringo has not yet responded

    
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