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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Kader
Member (Idle past 3835 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 31 of 1444 (372834)
12-29-2006 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by anastasia
12-29-2006 5:46 PM


Here in the OP
Message 1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 5:46 PM anastasia has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 6061 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 32 of 1444 (372845)
12-29-2006 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kader
12-28-2006 1:13 PM


Kader writes:
.First, God knew you would die. You also died for a reason. (God has a plan). So how can the guy that shot you had any choice but to shoot you ?
God knew you would die, yes. But I think it is a matter of opinion whether you died for a reason or not. I would say that God has some plans, but one of them is free will.
The shooter had a choice also, yes, unless someone else squeezed his fingers on the trigger. Just because God knew what the shooter would do before hand doesn't mean he had no choice.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Kader, posted 12-28-2006 1:13 PM Kader has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Asgara, posted 12-29-2006 8:25 PM anastasia has replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 33 of 1444 (372847)
12-29-2006 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by anastasia
12-29-2006 8:22 PM


Just because God knew what he would do before hand doesn't mean he had no choice.
Does this God know what these actions will be before you are born?
Is this God the sole creator of life?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 8:22 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 12-29-2006 9:06 PM Asgara has not replied
 Message 37 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 9:33 PM Asgara has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18427
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 34 of 1444 (372849)
12-29-2006 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Asgara
12-29-2006 8:25 PM


God may know that actions that are chosen
Asgara writes:
Does this God know what these actions will be before you are born?
Yes. I believe that the future is set much as the past is set. What has happened in the past has happened and nothing can change that fact.
  • There is a difference between God knowing the future and God decreeing every future event by fiat such that it will then take place. ---Just because God knows what I will ultimately decide does not take away my ability to decide...it only means that God knew my decision before I did.
  • We are going to make particular decisions in the future that are acts of our own personal will, and that is what secures the future such that God can know particular things or facts about the future. Therefore we can call God omniscient because He knows all things, but we can't necessarily say that He makes up our minds for us....only that we can't do anything that He did not foreknow.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 33 by Asgara, posted 12-29-2006 8:25 PM Asgara has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 35 by Kader, posted 12-29-2006 9:12 PM Phat has replied

      
    Kader
    Member (Idle past 3835 days)
    Posts: 156
    Joined: 12-20-2006


    Message 35 of 1444 (372852)
    12-29-2006 9:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
    12-29-2006 9:06 PM


    Re: God may know that actions that are chosen
    Phat does God have a plan for you ?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 34 by Phat, posted 12-29-2006 9:06 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 36 by Phat, posted 12-29-2006 9:27 PM Kader has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18427
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 36 of 1444 (372859)
    12-29-2006 9:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 35 by Kader
    12-29-2006 9:12 PM


    Re: God may know that actions that are chosen
    Say that I died tomorrow. God foreknew that I would die and how I would die. This only means what it means---that God foreknew that on that day I would get shot since was in spot X. Does this mean that the guy who shot me could not have chosen a different path in the past? All that we can conclude is that the guy obviously didn't choose another path...not that he couldn't have. Just because something happens does not mean that it must happen...(unless you see it from Gods forward looking view)it simply means that it did happen.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 35 by Kader, posted 12-29-2006 9:12 PM Kader has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 39 by Kader, posted 12-29-2006 9:59 PM Phat has replied

      
    anastasia
    Member (Idle past 6061 days)
    Posts: 1857
    From: Bucks County, PA
    Joined: 11-05-2006


    Message 37 of 1444 (372860)
    12-29-2006 9:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 33 by Asgara
    12-29-2006 8:25 PM


    Asgara writes:
    Does this God know what these actions will be before you are born?
    Is this God the sole creator of life?
    That is how I imagine it, yes.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 33 by Asgara, posted 12-29-2006 8:25 PM Asgara has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 38 by Asgara, posted 12-29-2006 9:48 PM anastasia has not replied

      
    Asgara
    Member (Idle past 2410 days)
    Posts: 1783
    From: Wisconsin, USA
    Joined: 05-10-2003


    Message 38 of 1444 (372862)
    12-29-2006 9:48 PM
    Reply to: Message 37 by anastasia
    12-29-2006 9:33 PM


    So, if this God created you knowing the final outcome...how can you truly have free will?
    You are simply acting out the script that was written for you.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 37 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 9:33 PM anastasia has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 41 by Phat, posted 12-29-2006 10:36 PM Asgara has replied

      
    Kader
    Member (Idle past 3835 days)
    Posts: 156
    Joined: 12-20-2006


    Message 39 of 1444 (372868)
    12-29-2006 9:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
    12-29-2006 9:27 PM


    Re: God may know that actions that are chosen
    Say that I died tomorrow. God foreknew that I would die and how I would die. This only means what it means---that God foreknew that on that day I would get shot since was in spot X. Does this mean that the guy who shot me could not have chosen a different path in the past? All that we can conclude is that the guy obviously didn't choose another path...not that he couldn't have. Just because something happens does not mean that it must happen...(unless you see it from Gods forward looking view)it simply means that it did happen.
    But that doesnt answer the question..
    Does god has a plan for you ?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 36 by Phat, posted 12-29-2006 9:27 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 40 by Phat, posted 12-29-2006 10:32 PM Kader has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18427
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 40 of 1444 (372876)
    12-29-2006 10:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 39 by Kader
    12-29-2006 9:59 PM


    Re: God may know that actions that are chosen
    Websters writes:
    1plann 1 : a drawing or diagram showing the parts or details of something 2 : a method for accomplishing an objective; also : goal, aim
    So in the sense of God desiring that I live life to the best of my ability through His will, yes He wants the best for me.
    He cannot have a plan as long as I have any control, so in this sense His plan is that I willfully and joyfully accept His guidance. He desires that I have relationship with Him so that I freely choose what turns out to always be the better option.
    His foreknowing my eventual destiny does not mean that He controls me.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 39 by Kader, posted 12-29-2006 9:59 PM Kader has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 73 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 12:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18427
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 41 of 1444 (372877)
    12-29-2006 10:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 38 by Asgara
    12-29-2006 9:48 PM


    Puppets or Prodegies?
    Asgara writes:
    So, if this God created you knowing the final outcome...how can you truly have free will?
    Phat writes:
    Just because He knows what my decisions will be does not mean that He forced my decisions...only that I cannot force His knowledge.
    You are simply acting out the script that was written for you.
    I am co writing the script through my actions. Just because He knows what I want to do before I do does not mean that He activates my mind and moves my lips.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 38 by Asgara, posted 12-29-2006 9:48 PM Asgara has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 42 by Asgara, posted 12-29-2006 10:46 PM Phat has replied

      
    Asgara
    Member (Idle past 2410 days)
    Posts: 1783
    From: Wisconsin, USA
    Joined: 05-10-2003


    Message 42 of 1444 (372878)
    12-29-2006 10:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
    12-29-2006 10:36 PM


    Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
    no one said that he activates your mind or moves your lips
    Does he or does he not already have your life scripted out before he creates you? If he doesn't then he doesn't know what will happen.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 41 by Phat, posted 12-29-2006 10:36 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 43 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 11:37 PM Asgara has replied
     Message 50 by Phat, posted 12-30-2006 3:20 AM Asgara has not replied
     Message 75 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2015 12:41 PM Asgara has replied
     Message 366 by Phat, posted 01-03-2016 3:51 PM Asgara has not replied

      
    anastasia
    Member (Idle past 6061 days)
    Posts: 1857
    From: Bucks County, PA
    Joined: 11-05-2006


    Message 43 of 1444 (372888)
    12-29-2006 11:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 42 by Asgara
    12-29-2006 10:46 PM


    Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
    You are probably not going to like this answer; at the least it will only provoke more questions. But...
    Asgara writes:
    Does he or does he not already have your life scripted out before he creates you? If he doesn't then he doesn't know what will happen.
    I was going to ask you to clarify your previous post, but Phat ended up taking it in that direction anyway.
    The problem is; there is no before and no after to God. It is all NOW. Make sense? Probably not. Still, it is an accepted theological concept. God's creating, and God's knowing, are simultaneous events. There is no need for a chronological sequence of events or cause = effect reasoning.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 42 by Asgara, posted 12-29-2006 10:46 PM Asgara has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 44 by Asgara, posted 12-29-2006 11:43 PM anastasia has replied

      
    Asgara
    Member (Idle past 2410 days)
    Posts: 1783
    From: Wisconsin, USA
    Joined: 05-10-2003


    Message 44 of 1444 (372892)
    12-29-2006 11:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 43 by anastasia
    12-29-2006 11:37 PM


    Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
    I don't see how that makes a difference....
    If it is all "now" to god then it still is an issue of creating knowing what is happening...now or future doesn't matter.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 43 by anastasia, posted 12-29-2006 11:37 PM anastasia has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 45 by anastasia, posted 12-30-2006 12:06 AM Asgara has replied
     Message 132 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 12:38 PM Asgara has not replied

      
    anastasia
    Member (Idle past 6061 days)
    Posts: 1857
    From: Bucks County, PA
    Joined: 11-05-2006


    Message 45 of 1444 (372899)
    12-30-2006 12:06 AM
    Reply to: Message 44 by Asgara
    12-29-2006 11:43 PM


    Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
    Asgara writes:
    If it is all "now" to god then it still is an issue of creating knowing what is happening...now or future doesn't matter.
    I could turn this into an endless conundrum, but why can't God in one second set in motion His creation, and know in that very second what the eventual outcome will be, without actually choosing the outcome?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 44 by Asgara, posted 12-29-2006 11:43 PM Asgara has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 46 by Asgara, posted 12-30-2006 12:33 AM anastasia has replied

      
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