The Gory Details of 'Miracles'

I think you could do better, but good luck with it. I'd tell you more but there's pissy people around.

I sent you an answer privately... Good luck with the topic.

Well, He was promised that his offspring would be as numerous as the sands of the sea. But c'mon people! Why suddenly... can I empathize with jar. Is that a good sign?

Really? What a bummer!Can God do miracles today?Of course! We are surrounded by miracles (from our point of view). But they are not miraculous to God!Can God manifest transubstantiation?Of course! He is God! He can do anything He pleases as long as He finds it wise. But He does not oppose Himself.Did Jesus tell us to eat His physical flesh?No! Jesus clearly (clear as glass) explains the metaphor/parable:John 6:48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." 52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" 53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" 61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve. 68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God." 70 Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"Jesus is Living and breathing Truth incarnate. He is transubstantiation.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

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If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)

Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, let us reason together," says the Lord. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. I didn't. I included it so that the context of Jesus' words that followed would be complete. John 6:56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. 60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"Because they (Jews) were taking it litterally and not figuratively. They were stumbling over the stone.1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, Oh but truth is a substance. It is what the entire universe is made of. But it cannot be discovered under a microscope! We must use a much more sophisticated tool to discover it. And you are that tool.Luke 17:21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."Treasures are also substances or material at times. Which is more valuable, treasure or truth?Or are they the same?Matthew 6:20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22 "The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!Luke 11:35 See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness.We don't coin new terms. We can only discover that which already is, or distort that which already is. Those are our choices. That is the only power we have isolated here on a tiny blue speck, floating in infinite space. Chained to the earth and the earth to the sun, and the sun to it's Laws etc...You want that term?John 1:1In the beginning was the Word.The term you ask for was already coined in the beggining... "Let there be Light!"And Anastasia, if you know modern physics, then you know that light is both a wave and a particle.2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." The same way you consumed arithmatic when it was fed to you. You don't eat everything offered to you of course. We must test the spirits, because some of them will make you puke.Follow 'the little white rabbit' called conscious.Matthew 4:19
"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."Matthew 8:22
But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."Matthew 9:9
As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.Matthew 10:38
and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

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If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)

I was a way for a couple days, and thought you might have responded differently than this. You don't think I am the final authority in interpreting scriture? Well neither do I. The final authority is the Bible itself. It interprets itself when put into total context. If we want to know the whole truth, we do not throw away peices of the puzzle. That would be counterproductive to say the least!We must take all of God's word and put it together...What I find interesting is that we are so easily tempted to take some of Jesus' words litterally, but throw out those that do not conform to our personal understadnding or beliefs. Whole institutions fall into this trap. Personally, I take all of Jesus' words litterally. If there is something in scipture that contradicts my own understanding thus far, most often I find that it has been my understanding that needed to conform.We don't have to agree on this Anastasia, but allow me to explain. And please do consider what I say in the spirit intended.When we look at Jesus' words in John:John 6:53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.Now compare that to Luke:Luke 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."Ok, my point is (beyond what I covered in my last post) that Jesus did not say, 'Do this , so you may have life in you', He said, 'Do this in remembrance of me.I was raised catholic remember. And alter boy and the whole bit. Not one did I ever taste flesh and blood. I tasted wine and unleaven bread. it hink that if the communion was litterally the flesh and blood of Christ, our palate would be able to distinguish that.Remember that under the Old Testament, the priests would offer the burnt offering and then the priests would eat the meat. This is the pictur being painted by Christ. Only He (being the High Priest) offered Himself as the attoning sacrifce once and for all.And just as the Ark of the covenant had two Cheribim on each side of the Mercy Seat, also, the empty tomb had two angels on each side.Their are many parrallels like these between the Old Covenant and the New because the Old was an Archetype of the New. The Old was symbolic of what would take place in the future and Christ's life was symbolic of the Old.So it is symbolic Anastasia. We don't have a sacrificial system any longer because Christ fulfilled it and the law. We are the new priests and only do these things in remembrance of His final sacrifice.Matthew 9:13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.So think about it... It doesn't mean that Catholics are not Christians. One of my favorite theologians was Catholic and He was most certainly a man of Spiritual discernment. Being born again is not dependent upon the denomination of our Church, it is dependent upon the individual and God. It just means that like all organized churches, they have missed parts of the truth and need to be flexible.God does new things all the time in the Bible, because people love to try and keep Him or put Him in a box, but He is not containable.If we want to feed on Christ and continue to grow and have life, then we must feed on the truth wherever it may lead. The way is blocked only by our own bias. But He tracks us like a hound; a messenger here, a billboard there. Reality is always there threatening to call our bluffs.For our sake as well as His, He succeeds.
His will be done, not mine.

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If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)

Anastasia, I can't believe you're having such a difficult time with this....Of course the symbolism doesn't give life, Jesus does. And that life is Spirit. God is Spirit, and that is more real than the material. That is what the material world is made of. And Like I said, a microscope cannot discover this. Rather it takes a far more sophisticated and sensitive instrument; you!That's what being born of the Spirit is all about. The rituals we perform are important only as physical reminders of the Spiritual reality that Christ revealed. That's why He said, 'The flesh counts for nothing, the words I speak to you are Spirit and they are life.When He said, 'You must eat my flesh and drink my blood, He was speaking of a spiritual reality in physical terms. Spirit is ideational not material. It is etherial, not corporeal. His words were a physical metaphor for spiritual reality.That is why so many could not accept it. To be frank (and I apologize for the cut) no one in their right mind could take his words to be litteral. The Old testament reality of eating the flesh of the burnt offering was symbolic of the coming Spiritual meal and communion with God as per the new birth.Remember what Jesus said to Satan in the dessert?... "Man cannot live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God."That's why I said, you consume Christ in the same way you consumed Arithmatic when it was fed to you. Not precisely the same of course, but an excellent analogy.John 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." 9 "How can this be?" Nicodemus asked. 10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?Don't respond.... think about it.

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If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)

Well, I don't know about the earliest, but at the very least, Martin Luther.

Ok fine.... that's enough for me... More than I want to know in terms of relevency. If you think it's the real flesh and blood, it's ok. I don't think it's going to affect the justification by faith. I'm sorry I brought it up and I knew I would be.I know the significance of His sacrifice and understand the spiritual reality. The spiritual parallel to light, is truth. Both are defined by choice of the observer (don't ask). I personally think that is more important.I accept and consume Him just as you.Boy... I'm glad that's over! I'll just go back to playing on your team where our differing league rules are the same ok?The score:Anastasia 1
Scottness 0

So jesus sacrifice was not enough? That is very unbiblical. If that's true, then some men are more equal than others. We are to present our bodies as a living sacrifice, but that will never earn our redemption. If it could, then Jesus didn't need to die. Anastasia 1
Scottness 1Just kidding!

No, not any man. Only a sinner.Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."Not just any man is virgin born and raised from the dead jar. He was the one man who didn't have to die.The wages of sin is death.No sin=no death necessary.Unless of course the Spotless Lamb decides to offer Himself as a sacrifice for your sin.Talk about miracles!

jar writes:What charges do you bring against Him?Better yet:I have a three year old son. If he runs out in front of a car in his ignorance, and I push him out of the way and give my own life, does that mean I will be accused of ignorance?And better still:Will my son grow up and call me a fool, since he decides to live his life for his own indulgence?And yet once more:Will he call himself one who honors his father?Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

jar wirtes:Sorry jar, but you forgot the qualifier I put behind my comment. I said the following in message 68, (I have highlighted the part you left out): So I made it clear that a man who need not die for any reason but love, can choose to. It is you jar who have misrepresented your opponent.I forgive you...Edited by scottness, : 68 not 86Edited by scottness, : No reason given.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Now that's why Arachnophilia is Arachnophilia...But with mere words aside and context inserted, are you comparing the sovereignty of God, to the powerlessness of man?I ask because it is my understanding that Solomon is resounding the utter dependancy of man upon God, and our incompetence apart from Him. Not to mention the burden of the eternal upon the finitude of humanity.Ecclesiastes 1:9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. 10 Is there anything of which one can say, "Look! This is something new"? It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time. 11 There is no remembrance of men of old, and even those who are yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow.12 I, the Teacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem. 13 I devoted myself to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under heaven. What a heavy burden God has laid on men! 14 I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind. 15 What is twisted cannot be straightened; what is lacking cannot be counted. 16 I thought to myself, "Look, I have grown and increased in wisdom more than anyone who has ruled over Jerusalem before me; I have experienced much of wisdom and knowledge." 17 Then I applied myself to the understanding of wisdom, and also of madness and folly, but I learned that this, too, is a chasing after the wind. 18 For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief.