Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Gory Details of 'Miracles'
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 1 of 123 (373518)
01-01-2007 8:43 PM


Dear Admins,
Assuming I can get a good OP going, I have heard that this topic might prove interesting. I would like to discuss some of the lesser known Catholic 'miracles' and I say Catholic because that is what I am familiar with.
To be specific, I was thinking of Incorruptibility, Eucharistic Miracles, Stigmata, and possibly such things as bilocution or ESP said to be possessed by certain priests.
This is not an attempt to discover whether or not these things can be proved as miracles i.e., supernatural phenomena, but to discuss possible scientific explanations, or whether some event that is unusual in nature could be used by God as a sign.
Also interested in parallels of the same type in other religions or scientific examples of the same phenomena happening elsewhere.
A brief description of Incorruptibility; in the RCC there are around 100 saints who are reported to be incorrupt i.e., their flesh, bones, brain, heart, or entire body were found to be preserved for an unnaturally long period of time. In a few cases there was obvious attempts to enbalm or mummify the body of a devout person, and in other cases the temperature of certain burial vaults is said to have hovered in a perfect range to avoid the decay caused by bacteria. Yet, in other cases their is no evident explanation yet. Good examples are St Zita who died in the 1300 century, and St Cherbel Maklouf who remained intact tho' found buried in mud.
Eucharistic miracles are cases in where the bread and wine used in Communion are said to have become actual flesh and blood. In some of them, the flesh was examined and found to be human heart tissue, and the blood to be human blood type AB. This is not so astonishing in itself, but it is reported that after centuries the flesh and blood have retained the properties of fresh human flesh, and the blood even when dry has retained the chemical properties of fresh blood, and that of a man in agony.
So what think ye?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminSchraf, posted 01-01-2007 10:52 PM anastasia has replied
 Message 5 by Rob, posted 01-01-2007 11:35 PM anastasia has replied
 Message 8 by jar, posted 01-01-2007 11:44 PM anastasia has replied
 Message 12 by limbosis, posted 01-02-2007 1:24 AM anastasia has replied
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-02-2007 3:29 PM anastasia has replied
 Message 16 by Coragyps, posted 01-02-2007 3:42 PM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 3 of 123 (373568)
01-01-2007 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminSchraf
01-01-2007 10:52 PM


adminschraf writes:
Well, I'm a bit confused about where you want this to be discussed, due to the following:
Yes, I think I will skip the part about religious signifigance of any kind, unless mentioning things similar which occur in other religions. I half had a topic in mind about revelations after the Bible and what some of the 'miracles' are supposed to have taught us about God, but am more interested in hearing opinions about causes etc. this round.
Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminSchraf, posted 01-01-2007 10:52 PM AdminSchraf has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 6 of 123 (373584)
01-01-2007 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Rob
01-01-2007 11:35 PM


scottness writes:
I think you could do better,
Better in what aspect? Creating a topic, or writing up this one?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Rob, posted 01-01-2007 11:35 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Rob, posted 01-01-2007 11:42 PM anastasia has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 9 of 123 (373593)
01-02-2007 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
01-01-2007 11:44 PM


jar writes:
St Cherbel Maklouf is probably not that unusual. Being buried in mud could well produce a anaerobic environment.
I will update here the spelling of the name -Charbel Makhlouf-.
St Zita is a whole different story. I am not familiar with anything supernatural about her body or preservation. Her grave was discovered a couple hundred years after her death and the grave was intact as well as seeming undisturbed.
I can not say whether there is something supernatural about any of the bodies found, or just some factor of preservation not obvious yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 01-01-2007 11:44 PM jar has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 13 of 123 (373602)
01-02-2007 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by limbosis
01-02-2007 1:24 AM


Re: a man in agony?
limbosis writes:
What do you mean by that?
Well, that is what I am trying to find out. What I have read is that there are certain blood samples found on altar clothes which have the biochemical marks of a person in trauma.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by limbosis, posted 01-02-2007 1:24 AM limbosis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by limbosis, posted 01-02-2007 3:35 AM anastasia has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 20 of 123 (373801)
01-02-2007 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
01-02-2007 3:29 PM


Re: Miraculous miracles
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
As far as incorruptibility goes, I know very little about any cases of such. You mentioned a couple of cases. One of them was Saint Zita. I don't know much about her, but I did track down a postmortem photo and, although she appears fairly well preserved, she also appears to be in the early stages of genuine putrefaction.
Would that be normal for a body of that age? Also, you may look up Bernadette Soubirous or incorruptibles in general for more photos. There is no real pattern which is odd if these things are miracles, but there are some people who only started rotting after being on display for 300 years, and then people who still look pretty perfect. I have one of these bodies near my house which is maybe what has made me curious about the subject.
This phenomenon has always interested me, but I don't know enough about it to make any kind of assertion. I'm certain that some people have committed fraud to pass it off as a legitimate phenomenon, but I can't say whether true stigmata has occurred as the result of a divine miracle.
Padre Pio is the example that comes to mind, and he is such a publically known figure that I have a hard time understanding how this is still a mystery also.
Transubstantiation is certainly an interesting topic. If analysis indeed confirmed that the wine literally turned into blood, and the wafer literally turned into flesh, I don't see how any natural phenomenon could resolve that. That certainly would be miraculous.
Or just a great big hoax. For every event which the church approves, there are many more which are found to be hoaxes or untrustworthy. There are samples of real flesh and real blood on display in many churches but proving where they came from is another matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-02-2007 3:29 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-03-2007 5:17 AM anastasia has not replied
 Message 35 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-03-2007 3:09 PM anastasia has replied
 Message 41 by sidelined, posted 01-04-2007 11:03 AM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 21 of 123 (373805)
01-02-2007 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Coragyps
01-02-2007 3:42 PM


Coragyps writes:
Mummified would be my bet.
Just for clarity I will point out that that are probably thousands of sliced up saints and relics floating around, but the amount of those considered incorruptible is relatively small, usually 100-200.
Often the bodies of devout persons were mummified in some way just so folks could turn a profit on such relics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Coragyps, posted 01-02-2007 3:42 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 26 of 123 (373853)
01-02-2007 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Rob
01-02-2007 10:45 PM


Re: Miracle or whopper
Don't mind the foreskin stuff. It is not the topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Rob, posted 01-02-2007 10:45 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Rob, posted 01-02-2007 11:02 PM anastasia has replied
 Message 30 by Nighttrain, posted 01-03-2007 5:13 AM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 28 of 123 (373859)
01-02-2007 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Rob
01-02-2007 11:02 PM


Re: Miracle or whopper
scottness writes:
From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
Why? Because Jesus said 'the flesh counts for nothing'? What is there about that saying which would cause men to turn away? Is that not a common theme in the Bible (the transience of this life)?
Why would you ignore the entire paragraph before this?
And if so many ignore, is that not just providing evidence that Eucharistic miracles are necessary?
Jesus is Living and breathing Truth incarnate. He is transubstantiation.
Pardon my barbarianism, but if this is true, how should we go about eating His flesh as He prescribes?
Oh, and BTW, Truth is not a substance. You will need to coin your own term for this doctrine.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Rob, posted 01-02-2007 11:02 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Rob, posted 01-03-2007 4:52 AM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 32 of 123 (373987)
01-03-2007 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Nighttrain
01-03-2007 5:13 AM


Re: Miracle or whopper
Nighttrain writes:
Well, if you don`t think a foreskin expanding into 37 RC churches is a 'miracle', I don`t know what would qualify. Of course, if there`s the slightest chance the RC churches are lying about the Holy Prepuce, isn`t it conceivable (indirect pun) there could be a teeny-weeny chance they are lying about the providential preservation of the Saints?
Well, if you want to show me that the Jesw had a custom of saving foreskins and labeling them, and that all of the 37 you mentioned actually exist and have been examined, and that perhaps the DNA for each is identical, I will think about the possibility of a miracle.
I am only asking about bodies which do exist and have been examined, and in some cases defy science, not to the extent that such preservations do not occur, but to why it occurred in these situations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Nighttrain, posted 01-03-2007 5:13 AM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 01-03-2007 12:05 PM anastasia has not replied
 Message 38 by Nighttrain, posted 01-04-2007 2:08 AM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 34 of 123 (374005)
01-03-2007 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Rob
01-03-2007 4:52 AM


Re: The Answer's in Anastasia
So, Rob, what I asked was; if Jesus cleared up this mystery by saying "the flesh counts for nothing" why then did the Jews still turn away? It is clear they thought he was speaking of cannibalism, and literally He was, and it was a stumbling block. But you are not the final authority on interpreting the other senses of scripture. There is nothing wrong with taking Jesus words literally, and simply because of the number of times He repeated His point, it seems wise to do so. The 'stumbling block' here may be in not allowing Jesus to show us how His literal words shall be fulfilled.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Rob, posted 01-03-2007 4:52 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Rob, posted 01-04-2007 6:31 PM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 37 of 123 (374071)
01-03-2007 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Hyroglyphx
01-03-2007 3:09 PM


Re: Miraculous miracles
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
has been dead for 127 years. This is remarkable. You can tell that her caretakers gave her light blush and lipstick and painted her nails, but you can see that she has not decayed.
At one time supposedly some nuns washed her and re-buried her. The next time they dug her up she was off-color on some parts of her face, which they claim is from the washing. So, they put wax over top of her face and hands. I am not sure if it was cosmetic or to prevent more discoloration.
How long can a body last in wax? Longer than normal?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-03-2007 3:09 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by RickJB, posted 01-04-2007 4:01 AM anastasia has not replied
 Message 56 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-04-2007 8:02 PM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 42 of 123 (374359)
01-04-2007 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Nighttrain
01-04-2007 2:08 AM


Re: Miracle or whopper
Nighttrain writes:
Who said the Jews had a custom? The topic is about miracles and Saints
Oh, Nighttrain, I know there are churches that claim to have foreskins. This is not the first time I have heard about it. There are thousands of crazy claims to fame and odd impossible relics. One church says it has the true cross, another, the body of St Peter. It's just that there would need to be something more unusual about it before I would think it had the possibility of being paranormal. The incorruptibles may well be no more than a hoax; but the thread was intended to ask how these hoasxes could be pulled off without tampering with the bodies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Nighttrain, posted 01-04-2007 2:08 AM Nighttrain has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 43 of 123 (374363)
01-04-2007 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by sidelined
01-04-2007 11:03 AM


Re: Miraculous miracles
sidelined writes:
Concerning the body of Saint Zita the state of preservation can easily be achieved if care is taken and outside help is in place. The photos do show decay on Zita and this would tend to confirm outside help since it seems unlikely that true incorruptibility would show decay after any stretch of time whatsoever.
Well, first off there are some saints that were thought to have been incorruptible for 300 years and then stopped being incorruptible. Not too shocking. But suppose there was some time-frame allotted for all of them, and a body like Zita's has been kept around even after the decay set in? The problem is, there doesn't seem to be enough information to make a case either way.
Zita was unearthed and found to be intact, autopsy showed she had many dieases and infirmaties during life, but no sign of any embalming fluids or human preservation tactics.
Almost all of the bodies are covered with wax and kept in a glass case. They are prone to discoloration form moisture and candles.
What I would like to know is whether you or anyone has an idea of how knowledgeable the medieval world was about preserving a body aside from attempts to embalm.
Also, would covering a body with wax and putting it under glass keep it intact for any number of years? and if so, why is this not a common practice for funeral homes etc?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by sidelined, posted 01-04-2007 11:03 AM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by RickJB, posted 01-04-2007 12:10 PM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 46 of 123 (374408)
01-04-2007 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by RickJB
01-04-2007 12:10 PM


Re: Miraculous miracles
RickJB writes:
Just to clear this up, are you talking about a layer of wax cosmetics over the skin, or a fully-sculpted mask?
If there is a layer of wax over the skin it might help stop decomposition by clogging the pores. It might also prevent discoloration due to exposure. I have heard some saints have a light wax coating, and others have a full wax mask. In either case the question was whether that alone can stop decomposition of a corpse, or just pretty them up. I think that wax is used by modern funeral homes, but usually formaldahyde is also. So, what, if anything, is under the wax?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by RickJB, posted 01-04-2007 12:10 PM RickJB has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 01-04-2007 1:50 PM anastasia has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024