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Author Topic:   The Gory Details of 'Miracles'
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 16 of 123 (373743)
01-02-2007 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by anastasia
01-01-2007 8:43 PM


Hmmmm. I saw an absolutely beautiful reliquary in a museum - in St. Louis, I think, and maybe a travelling exhibit from the Vatican. It had a little window where you could see an actual slice of Saint Somebody's Liver. It did actually look pretty good for being 700+ years old, but "incorruptible" would be overstating things. It was beyond being ready to saute, I mean, no matter how many onions you used.
Mummified would be my bet.

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Replies to this message:
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limbosis
Member (Idle past 6278 days)
Posts: 120
From: United States
Joined: 12-06-2006


Message 17 of 123 (373761)
01-02-2007 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
01-02-2007 3:29 PM


a course in miracles
Transubstantiation is certainly an interesting topic. If analysis indeed confirmed that the wine literally turned into blood, and the wafer literally turned into flesh, I don't see how any natural phenomenon could resolve that. That certainly would be miraculous.
Yeah, but let us frame that in a reasonable manner.
If wafers and wine were turned into flesh and blood, in every church on earth, at a single time and day, which was published worldwide in local newspapers at least a week in advance...that would be a simple miracle.
Anything else is just hearsay. God knows that. So do we.
P.S. It would take many, many of those to make up for the crap we endure. I'd expect to see a miracle a day, from now on.
Is that too much to ask?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-02-2007 3:29 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-02-2007 5:34 PM limbosis has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 123 (373779)
01-02-2007 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by limbosis
01-02-2007 4:45 PM


Re: a course in miracles
If wafers and wine were turned into flesh and blood, in every church on earth, at a single time and day, which was published worldwide in local newspapers at least a week in advance...that would be a simple miracle.
I think one instance, in one place, at one time of wine and wafer turning to flesh and blood a considerable miracle. I say that only in regards to it being true.
P.S. It would take many, many of those to make up for the crap we endure. I'd expect to see a miracle a day, from now on.
Is that too much to ask?
You're gonna have to ask Him that.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

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limbosis
Member (Idle past 6278 days)
Posts: 120
From: United States
Joined: 12-06-2006


Message 19 of 123 (373789)
01-02-2007 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Hyroglyphx
01-02-2007 5:34 PM


Re: a course in miracles
You're gonna have to ask Him that.
Aww, you made me smile.
Dammit, nemesis!

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 20 of 123 (373801)
01-02-2007 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
01-02-2007 3:29 PM


Re: Miraculous miracles
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
As far as incorruptibility goes, I know very little about any cases of such. You mentioned a couple of cases. One of them was Saint Zita. I don't know much about her, but I did track down a postmortem photo and, although she appears fairly well preserved, she also appears to be in the early stages of genuine putrefaction.
Would that be normal for a body of that age? Also, you may look up Bernadette Soubirous or incorruptibles in general for more photos. There is no real pattern which is odd if these things are miracles, but there are some people who only started rotting after being on display for 300 years, and then people who still look pretty perfect. I have one of these bodies near my house which is maybe what has made me curious about the subject.
This phenomenon has always interested me, but I don't know enough about it to make any kind of assertion. I'm certain that some people have committed fraud to pass it off as a legitimate phenomenon, but I can't say whether true stigmata has occurred as the result of a divine miracle.
Padre Pio is the example that comes to mind, and he is such a publically known figure that I have a hard time understanding how this is still a mystery also.
Transubstantiation is certainly an interesting topic. If analysis indeed confirmed that the wine literally turned into blood, and the wafer literally turned into flesh, I don't see how any natural phenomenon could resolve that. That certainly would be miraculous.
Or just a great big hoax. For every event which the church approves, there are many more which are found to be hoaxes or untrustworthy. There are samples of real flesh and real blood on display in many churches but proving where they came from is another matter.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 41 by sidelined, posted 01-04-2007 11:03 AM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 21 of 123 (373805)
01-02-2007 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Coragyps
01-02-2007 3:42 PM


Coragyps writes:
Mummified would be my bet.
Just for clarity I will point out that that are probably thousands of sliced up saints and relics floating around, but the amount of those considered incorruptible is relatively small, usually 100-200.
Often the bodies of devout persons were mummified in some way just so folks could turn a profit on such relics.

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 22 of 123 (373813)
01-02-2007 7:59 PM


Miracle or whopper
Well, we are informed that 37 churches in France and Spain have Jesus` foreskin. Since churches never lie, either we are facing the first self-replicating foreskin, or Jesus had the biggest aspidistra in history.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 23 of 123 (373815)
01-02-2007 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Nighttrain
01-02-2007 7:59 PM


Re: Miracle or whopper
HOLY SMOKE. How godly!

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 123 (373816)
01-02-2007 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by ramoss
01-02-2007 8:07 PM


Re: Miracle or whopper
Hopefully not in my Whopper. Switching immediately to Wendy's from now on.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 25 of 123 (373850)
01-02-2007 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Nighttrain
01-02-2007 7:59 PM


Re: Miracle or whopper
Well, we are informed that 37 churches in France and Spain have Jesus` foreskin. Since churches never lie, either we are facing the first self-replicating foreskin, or Jesus had the biggest aspidistra in history.
Well, He was promised that his offspring would be as numerous as the sands of the sea.
But c'mon people!
Why suddenly... can I empathize with jar.
Is that a good sign?

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Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 26 of 123 (373853)
01-02-2007 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Rob
01-02-2007 10:45 PM


Re: Miracle or whopper
Don't mind the foreskin stuff. It is not the topic.

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 Message 25 by Rob, posted 01-02-2007 10:45 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 30 by Nighttrain, posted 01-03-2007 5:13 AM anastasia has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 27 of 123 (373858)
01-02-2007 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by anastasia
01-02-2007 10:49 PM


Re: Miracle or whopper
Don't mind the foreskin stuff. It is not the topic.
Really? What a bummer!
Can God do miracles today?
Of course! We are surrounded by miracles (from our point of view). But they are not miraculous to God!
Can God manifest transubstantiation?
Of course! He is God! He can do anything He pleases as long as He finds it wise. But He does not oppose Himself.
Did Jesus tell us to eat His physical flesh?
No! Jesus clearly (clear as glass) explains the metaphor/parable:
John 6:48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." 52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" 53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" 61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve. 68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God." 70 Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"
Jesus is Living and breathing Truth incarnate. He is transubstantiation.
Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by anastasia, posted 01-02-2007 10:49 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by anastasia, posted 01-02-2007 11:12 PM Rob has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 28 of 123 (373859)
01-02-2007 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Rob
01-02-2007 11:02 PM


Re: Miracle or whopper
scottness writes:
From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
Why? Because Jesus said 'the flesh counts for nothing'? What is there about that saying which would cause men to turn away? Is that not a common theme in the Bible (the transience of this life)?
Why would you ignore the entire paragraph before this?
And if so many ignore, is that not just providing evidence that Eucharistic miracles are necessary?
Jesus is Living and breathing Truth incarnate. He is transubstantiation.
Pardon my barbarianism, but if this is true, how should we go about eating His flesh as He prescribes?
Oh, and BTW, Truth is not a substance. You will need to coin your own term for this doctrine.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Rob, posted 01-02-2007 11:02 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Rob, posted 01-03-2007 4:52 AM anastasia has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 29 of 123 (373913)
01-03-2007 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by anastasia
01-02-2007 11:12 PM


The Answer's in Anastasia
Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, let us reason together," says the Lord. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
Why would you ignore the entire paragraph before this?
I didn't. I included it so that the context of Jesus' words that followed would be complete.
Why? Because Jesus said 'the flesh counts for nothing'? What is there about that saying which would cause men to turn away?
John 6:56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. 60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
Because they (Jews) were taking it litterally and not figuratively. They were stumbling over the stone.
1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
Oh, and BTW, Truth is not a substance. You will need to coin your own term for this doctrine.
Oh but truth is a substance. It is what the entire universe is made of. But it cannot be discovered under a microscope! We must use a much more sophisticated tool to discover it. And you are that tool.
Luke 17:21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."
Treasures are also substances or material at times. Which is more valuable, treasure or truth?
Or are they the same?
Matthew 6:20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22 "The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
Luke 11:35 See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness.
We don't coin new terms. We can only discover that which already is, or distort that which already is. Those are our choices. That is the only power we have isolated here on a tiny blue speck, floating in infinite space. Chained to the earth and the earth to the sun, and the sun to it's Laws etc...
You want that term?
John 1:1In the beginning was the Word.
The term you ask for was already coined in the beggining...
"Let there be Light!"
And Anastasia, if you know modern physics, then you know that light is both a wave and a particle.
2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.
John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
if this is true, how should we go about eating His flesh as He prescribes?
The same way you consumed arithmatic when it was fed to you. You don't eat everything offered to you of course. We must test the spirits, because some of them will make you puke.
Follow 'the little white rabbit' called conscious.
Matthew 4:19
"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
Matthew 8:22
But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
Matthew 9:9
As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.
Matthew 10:38
and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by anastasia, posted 01-02-2007 11:12 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by anastasia, posted 01-03-2007 12:54 PM Rob has replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 30 of 123 (373918)
01-03-2007 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by anastasia
01-02-2007 10:49 PM


Re: Miracle or whopper
Don't mind the foreskin stuff. It is not the topic.
Well, if you don`t think a foreskin expanding into 37 RC churches is a 'miracle', I don`t know what would qualify. Of course, if there`s the slightest chance the RC churches are lying about the Holy Prepuce, isn`t it conceivable (indirect pun) there could be a teeny-weeny chance they are lying about the providential preservation of the Saints?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by anastasia, posted 01-02-2007 10:49 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by anastasia, posted 01-03-2007 11:57 AM Nighttrain has replied

  
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