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Author Topic:   The Gory Details of 'Miracles'
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 31 of 123 (373920)
01-03-2007 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by anastasia
01-02-2007 7:19 PM


Re: Miraculous miracles
Transubstantiation?
Now there's a topic that always rings a bell.
quote:
First you get down on your knees
Fiddle with your rosaries
Bow your head in great respect an'
Genuflect genuflect genuflect
Make whatever steps you want if
You have cleared them with the pontiff
Everyone say his own
Kyrie elieson
Doin' the Vatican Rag!
You get in line in that processional
Step into that small confessional
Where the guy whose got religion'll
Tell you if your sin's original
If it is, try playin' it safer
Drink the wine and chew the wafer
2, 4, 6, 8 --
Time to transubstantiate!
First you get down on your knees
Fiddle with your rosaries
Bow your head in great respect an'
Genuflect genuflect genuflect
Make a cross on your abdomen
When in Rome do like a Roman
Ave Maria!
Gee, it's good to see ya!
Gettin' ecstatic an'
sorta dramatic an'
Doin' the Vatican Rag!
--Tom Lehrer

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 32 of 123 (373987)
01-03-2007 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Nighttrain
01-03-2007 5:13 AM


Re: Miracle or whopper
Nighttrain writes:
Well, if you don`t think a foreskin expanding into 37 RC churches is a 'miracle', I don`t know what would qualify. Of course, if there`s the slightest chance the RC churches are lying about the Holy Prepuce, isn`t it conceivable (indirect pun) there could be a teeny-weeny chance they are lying about the providential preservation of the Saints?
Well, if you want to show me that the Jesw had a custom of saving foreskins and labeling them, and that all of the 37 you mentioned actually exist and have been examined, and that perhaps the DNA for each is identical, I will think about the possibility of a miracle.
I am only asking about bodies which do exist and have been examined, and in some cases defy science, not to the extent that such preservations do not occur, but to why it occurred in these situations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Nighttrain, posted 01-03-2007 5:13 AM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 01-03-2007 12:05 PM anastasia has not replied
 Message 38 by Nighttrain, posted 01-04-2007 2:08 AM anastasia has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 123 (373989)
01-03-2007 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by anastasia
01-03-2007 11:57 AM


Defy Science?
I am only asking about bodies which do exist and have been examined, and in some cases defy science, not to the extent that such preservations do not occur, but to why it occurred in these situations.
Before you can make such an assertion you need to present an example where the alleged incident has been examined in detail in a real scientific manner. So far I have seen NO such examples presented.
Or ...
better yet, take it to James Randi. He has a Million Dollar Challenge sitting there for anyone who can present such a critter.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 34 of 123 (374005)
01-03-2007 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Rob
01-03-2007 4:52 AM


Re: The Answer's in Anastasia
So, Rob, what I asked was; if Jesus cleared up this mystery by saying "the flesh counts for nothing" why then did the Jews still turn away? It is clear they thought he was speaking of cannibalism, and literally He was, and it was a stumbling block. But you are not the final authority on interpreting the other senses of scripture. There is nothing wrong with taking Jesus words literally, and simply because of the number of times He repeated His point, it seems wise to do so. The 'stumbling block' here may be in not allowing Jesus to show us how His literal words shall be fulfilled.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Rob, posted 01-03-2007 4:52 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Rob, posted 01-04-2007 6:31 PM anastasia has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 123 (374046)
01-03-2007 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by anastasia
01-02-2007 7:19 PM


Re: Miraculous miracles
Would that be normal for a body of that age?
Oh, wait a minute! A crucial aspect that I missed. She died in 1272. That means in April of this year her corpse will be 734 years old. Thanks for pointing that out. Given the fact that she's only under glass makes her body extremely well preserved given the amount of time and the oxygen saturated environment.
Also, you may look up Bernadette Soubirous or incorruptibles in general for more photos.
Bernadette Soubirous has been dead for 127 years. This is remarkable. You can tell that her caretakers gave her light blush and lipstick and painted her nails, but you can see that she has not decayed.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by anastasia, posted 01-02-2007 7:19 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by RickJB, posted 01-03-2007 3:27 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 37 by anastasia, posted 01-03-2007 4:06 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 36 of 123 (374054)
01-03-2007 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Hyroglyphx
01-03-2007 3:09 PM


Re: Miraculous miracles
NJ writes:
This is remarkable. You can tell that her caretakers gave her light blush and lipstick and painted her nails, but you can see that she has not decayed.
Apparently the face is a wax mask that was added in 1925. Underneath that she ain't going to be looking too pretty.
The hands also appear to be a bowl-shaped wax covering....
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-03-2007 3:09 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-04-2007 7:54 PM RickJB has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 37 of 123 (374071)
01-03-2007 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Hyroglyphx
01-03-2007 3:09 PM


Re: Miraculous miracles
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
has been dead for 127 years. This is remarkable. You can tell that her caretakers gave her light blush and lipstick and painted her nails, but you can see that she has not decayed.
At one time supposedly some nuns washed her and re-buried her. The next time they dug her up she was off-color on some parts of her face, which they claim is from the washing. So, they put wax over top of her face and hands. I am not sure if it was cosmetic or to prevent more discoloration.
How long can a body last in wax? Longer than normal?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-03-2007 3:09 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 56 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-04-2007 8:02 PM anastasia has replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 38 of 123 (374302)
01-04-2007 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by anastasia
01-03-2007 11:57 AM


Re: Miracle or whopper
Well, if you want to show me that the Jesw had a custom of saving foreskins and labeling them, and that all of the 37 you mentioned actually exist and have been examined, and that perhaps the DNA for each is identical, I will think about the possibility of a miracle.
Who said the Jews had a custom? The topic is about miracles and Saints. If you want to argue the toss of the non-existence of separate foreskins, I suggest you take it up with the Catholics of Calcata, Aix-la-Chapelle,Le-Ruy-en-Velay, Coulombs, Anvers, Besancon, Antwerp, Charroux, Santiago de Compostela, Chartres, Metz, Hildesheim, Conques, Fecamp, Langres and not one, but two, churches in Auvergne. The rest of the 37 are available via Google. Do your own DNA tests.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by anastasia, posted 01-03-2007 11:57 AM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 39 of 123 (374314)
01-04-2007 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by anastasia
01-03-2007 4:06 PM


Re: Miraculous miracles
anastasia writes:
So, they put wax over top of her face and hands. I am not sure if it was cosmetic or to prevent more discoloration.
They placed wax masks over her face and hands, not cosmetics.
The face and hands you see in the photo are light wax sculptures, like what you would see at Madame Tussauds.

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Replies to this message:
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 40 of 123 (374344)
01-04-2007 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by RickJB
01-04-2007 4:01 AM


Re: Miraculous miracles
They placed wax masks over her face and hands, not cosmetics.
I'm afraid you mis-took the use of the word. She used the adjective, which has to do with purpose, rather than the noun, which has to do with Maybelline. The purpose of the wax is cosmetic if it helps the surface look better, preservative if forestalls further damage.
__

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by RickJB, posted 01-04-2007 4:01 AM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 41 of 123 (374354)
01-04-2007 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by anastasia
01-02-2007 7:19 PM


Re: Miraculous miracles
anastasia
Would that be normal for a body of that age? Also, you may look up Bernadette Soubirous or incorruptibles in general for more photos
Concerning the body of Saint Zita the state of preservation can easily be achieved if care is taken and outside help is in place. The photos do show decay on Zita and this would tend to confirm outside help since it seems unlikely that true incorruptibility would show decay after any stretch of time whatsoever.
Here is a picture of Saint Zita
Saint Bernadette is an obvious reworking since she even looks better than when she first passed away.
This photo shows her after just passing away
This is a recent photo
It seems that there has been work done on the corpse and the maintenance of controlled conditions to prevent further decay again speaks to the absence of incorruptibility in my eyes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by anastasia, posted 01-02-2007 7:19 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 42 of 123 (374359)
01-04-2007 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Nighttrain
01-04-2007 2:08 AM


Re: Miracle or whopper
Nighttrain writes:
Who said the Jews had a custom? The topic is about miracles and Saints
Oh, Nighttrain, I know there are churches that claim to have foreskins. This is not the first time I have heard about it. There are thousands of crazy claims to fame and odd impossible relics. One church says it has the true cross, another, the body of St Peter. It's just that there would need to be something more unusual about it before I would think it had the possibility of being paranormal. The incorruptibles may well be no more than a hoax; but the thread was intended to ask how these hoasxes could be pulled off without tampering with the bodies.

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 43 of 123 (374363)
01-04-2007 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by sidelined
01-04-2007 11:03 AM


Re: Miraculous miracles
sidelined writes:
Concerning the body of Saint Zita the state of preservation can easily be achieved if care is taken and outside help is in place. The photos do show decay on Zita and this would tend to confirm outside help since it seems unlikely that true incorruptibility would show decay after any stretch of time whatsoever.
Well, first off there are some saints that were thought to have been incorruptible for 300 years and then stopped being incorruptible. Not too shocking. But suppose there was some time-frame allotted for all of them, and a body like Zita's has been kept around even after the decay set in? The problem is, there doesn't seem to be enough information to make a case either way.
Zita was unearthed and found to be intact, autopsy showed she had many dieases and infirmaties during life, but no sign of any embalming fluids or human preservation tactics.
Almost all of the bodies are covered with wax and kept in a glass case. They are prone to discoloration form moisture and candles.
What I would like to know is whether you or anyone has an idea of how knowledgeable the medieval world was about preserving a body aside from attempts to embalm.
Also, would covering a body with wax and putting it under glass keep it intact for any number of years? and if so, why is this not a common practice for funeral homes etc?

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RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 44 of 123 (374372)
01-04-2007 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Archer Opteryx
01-04-2007 10:26 AM


Re: Miraculous miracles
Archer writes:
I'm afraid you mis-took the use of the word. She used the adjective, which has to do with purpose, rather than the noun, which has to do with Maybelline. The purpose of the wax is cosmetic if it helps the surface look better, preservative if forestalls further damage.
Obviously, but I still think Anastasia has cosmetics in mind, not full masks...

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RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 45 of 123 (374374)
01-04-2007 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by anastasia
01-04-2007 11:29 AM


Re: Miraculous miracles
Anastasia writes:
Also, would covering a body with wax and putting it under glass keep it intact for any number of years? and if so, why is this not a common practice for funeral homes etc?
Just to clear this up, are you talking about a layer of wax cosmetics over the skin, or a fully-sculpted mask?
As far as I'm aware St Bernadette's entire "face" as we now see it is a sculpture made in wax.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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